Do you have any information on the content of the apparitions? Is some of it prophetic? Is there anything particularly contrary to the faith? I really know very little about the content. At Fatima there were specific prophesies -- the end of WWI, the need for the consecration of Russia and prayers for her conversion, and the prophecy of WWII which would begin with a great light in the sky. What are the prophecies associated with this apparition?
I hesitate to take any information from Cardinal Fernandez when he can't even get his facts straight about Lourdes, one of the most famous apparition sites. It was officially recognised in 1862, barely four years after the first report.
In contrast the local bishops in the former Yugoslavia have been sceptical of Medj from the early days. The local bishop in 1981, who was able to speak directly to the "visionaries" in their own language, believed that it was a practical joke which got out of control.
And with very good reason. The anti-Catholic messages being delivered, the prosperous lifestyle of the visionaries and the sheer volume of messages over four decades indicate that it is as fake as a three dollar note.
Yet it now seems to have achieved a sort of semi-official recognition insofar as Pope Francis has permitted official pilgrimages.....but, in typically confusing Francis style, he has simultaneously declared that this permission is not to be regarded as recognition of the apparitions.
Maybe Pope Francis has a weakness for one anti-Catholic message - the one where Our Lady seemed to declare that God is AOK with all religions. Which seems roughly in line with his controversial speech in Singapore on 13th Sept 2024.
Marpingen in the Saarland had a report of an apparition in 1876 which attracted more pilgrims than Lourdes for a while. But that was a fake. And, in 1999, there was a report of 13 visions by three women. 35,000 people flocked to the site. It took another official report in 2005 by the local bishop who gave 1876 and 1999 a double thumbs down. To my knowledge, this is a unique example of two reports in the same place so many years apart.
That statement is not support, per se; it's simply stating that, whatever the source of the visions, the visionaries had genuine experiences and were not faking a made-up story. There's a case to be made that the visions are demonic in origin. They can be genuine experiences, just not experiences originating from above...
Just to piggyback on the question, there's one thing I'd like to mention if that's ok. For centuries Franciscans basically held a monopoly on ministry in the country in regard to parishes. Saint Paul VI decided he wanted diocesan priests in the parishes and Bishop Žanić just by the fact he was the bishop there at the time was the one in charge of implementation. The Franciscans in the country really didn't take kindly to this and fought the bishop. Some of the messages were directed at the bishop, telling him moving Franciscan priests was "rash." The seers allegedly retracted this.
I know Wikipedia isn't the gold standard for academic research but it's a good place to start and look over the citations to decide if it's worth believing or not, the article on the bishop has a lot of this info.
This link supplies some more heresies and idiocies from the "visionaries". I would rate the idiotic messages as even more convincing evidence of the fraudulent nature of the phenomenon.
Phenomena at Ezkioga, Spain in 1931 is another example of "visions" that attracted huge crowds but were firmly suppressed by the Church. (The apparitions at Garabandal, which I personally think false, are almost a re-run of that event's apocalyptic "revelations.") See William Christian's book Visionaries.
There are a number of initial silly claims associated with Medjugorje, like worshippers' hands soiling the Virgin's dress, that ought to figure in the official judgment as well as the repetitive banality of the daily "messages." Something else I think is a serious blot on supernatural claims is the way Medjugorje served as a conduit for the dissemination of Maria Valtorta's vile work of "revelations," The Poem of the Man-God. Not only did one of the seers praise it, she said the Gospa authorized its reading by the faithful. (The Poem of the Man-God was the second to last work put on the old Index of Forbidden Books.) Perhaps when all the seers are dead and no "secrets" have come true, enthusiasm will fade. But I doubt it.
But as for the "good fruit" argument, demonstrably false relics supposedly worked miracles in the Middle Ages and the same was claimed for modern apparitions that the Church later found "not supernatural" or even fraudulent. I developed an intense distaste for apparitionism in the '90s. It looked like an attempt to find alternate ways to contact God, sought because of failures and corruption in the institutional Church.
In 50 years no one in the pews in my city will remember the synod on synodality (I am not sure how many of them remember it *now*), whereas all of the church ladies that I rub elbows with (normie and trad-adjacent and Latin-Mass-trad; online or cable-tv-only) are aware of Medjugorje and have opinions about it, and have either been there or know many people who have been there and also have opinions about that. My expectation is that the press conference will be a nothingburger partly because no one wants to upset millions of church ladies and *in the mode in which they receive it* it will say something like "continue to believe whatever you want about it" (I think that it will actually say something more nuanced than that), and partly because no one realizes that we do not love nuance and we will project a high-dimensionality object onto a plane.
In regards to William Murphy and other nay sayers, I went to Medjugorje in 1989 when the Communist still ruled and the tension was palpable in the country (not related to Medjugorje. We were deplaned from our flight which was going to Dubrovnik and had to identify our luggage before we were allowed back on the plane apparently due to concerns of "terrorism". Medjugorje was a place of Peace and a palpable spiritual presence. Just to set the record straight I can discern good from evil and this place was holy. Our Lady's message has not changed over the years. She is like her Son calling us all to repentance. She asks us to follow her 5 requests which are: Pray with the Heart (Rosary) daily, Fast twice a week (Wed & Fri) on bread and water, Read the Bible daily, Monthly Confession and Holy Communion. It the world had been listening to Our Lady the world would not be in the mess that it is in now. She is coming as the Queen of Peace asking us to repent and turn back to God. That is not different from Jesus' message and the Catholic Church. So get on your knees and pray, pray, pray. The Catholic Church and the whole world needs to heed Mary's requests.
Hmmm but the 2-year "queen of the holy rosary mediatrix of peace" apparitions in Necedah, Wisconsin were also ongoing apparitions/visions with exhortations to the rosary, admonitions against error and sin, and prophetic statments, and the visionary's final vision had *thousands of people* attending. And yet, what did the Church declare? Not genuine. And yet some continued to dissent from the ruling if the Church, incurring an interdict. Now look where they are - total schismatics.
Medjugorje also checks many of those same boxes, and the Church has likewise declared against their genuine Marian nature and safety as a devotion, and yet the supporters dissent against that ruling. The only difference is that in the 1950s the bishops still placed people under interdict... in the 80s/90s the idea of interdict was a bygone concept for bishops, and so the Medjugorje dissent went unpunished.
Ask yourself: if +Fernandez came out tomorrow and said "For the last time, it's not genuine! All Catholics must cease devotion, and we place the Medjugorje shrine under interdict," how would the devotees react? Would it be a "fiat" like Mary, or a "non serviam"? Considering the Church has already made her position fairly clear for like 20 years now, odds aren't good...
> Medjugorje was a place of Peace and a palpable spiritual presence.
At the risk of tempting a casual bystander to be curious about Zen Buddhism (there is nothing to be curious about), I could also say this of the grounds of the Pittsburgh Zen Center. You could cut the peace with a butter knife and spread it on scones like clotted cream. If someone was led only by feelings he could come to some wrong conclusions.
I am not following her 5 Requests (since I have something else that I am already following), and I don't think anyone *should* actually fast on bread and water twice a week without consulting his/her regular confessor or spiritual director (if someone wants to undertake physical penance he should first get a regular confessor or spiritual director so that he is not following his own preferences) and *perhaps* also primary care doctor. Why? Because humility and obedience are greater than physical feats.
I have serious concerns about Medjurgorje on 3 main grounds: 1) All the pronouncements and declarations that we have over the past decades either state outright, or at least imply thinly-veiled, that the apparitions are not genuine. The Church has repeatedly reinforced the position that these are not genuine, but the supporters (who claim support and instruction in the visionary messages themselves) continued to openly disobey their bishops and dissent.
2) Medjurgorje has a very complicated and blemished history wrapped up with, and coopted by, horrific partisan violence between Balkan ethnic groups.
3) It seems demonic by the fact that it constantly allures the devoted to seek something outside the bounds of what the Church considers safe, spiritually profitable, and approved for devotion; enticing people outside the "safe zone" and into a known "gray area." If I were a demon, and I wanted to get the staunchly devoted rosary-a-day Catholics, I know they're not going to fall for the same bait demonic influence normally attempts. A demonic-yet-convincing false apparition fools devotees into thinking everything is all fine and dandy, while actually luring the sheep out from the safety of fields of the shepherd that is the Church. All a demon needs to do is coax them into a "gray area." Physical healings can be a compromise if it corrupts the soul away from the safety of approved apparitions.
Plus, the alleged Medjugorje apparitions have a cult following that rivals even the cult (good sense) of OL of Fatima - drawing the faithful away from approved Marian devotions and apparitions. I know American Catholics who have, at significant personal expense, made multiple pilgrimages across the globe to Medjugorje... while the *actual approved real* Marian Apparition of OL of Good Hope (sent to our own people here in the US, with the shrine in our own backyard) continues to languish in relative obscurity and low annual traffic. It seems by all accounts to undermine the Church, which seems very suspect and offputting to me.
Cardinal Víctor Manuel Fernández said today: “The nihil obstat does not resolve or close everything for the future. It is a determination open to developments in time and space.”
Medjugorje has the spiritual fruits of an authentic Marian apparition. Notably the number of priestly and religious vocations attest to the veracity of the Queen of Peace's presence. I am sorry that some of you are skeptical and denigrating the requests of Mother Mary's call for world peace which starts in each individual's hearts. If you can't pray a Rosary from the heart or fast (which used to be a common practice in Catholic/Christian believers) or read the bible daily than you are missing out on what it means to be a Christ follower. Jesus said enter by the narrow gate which is not the easy westernized way of living. We are all unique individuals and God has a special plan for each of us. So follow God's plan for your life and be blessed but don't attack Our Mother Mary's request for prayers and sacrifices. God Bless.
Do you have any information on the content of the apparitions? Is some of it prophetic? Is there anything particularly contrary to the faith? I really know very little about the content. At Fatima there were specific prophesies -- the end of WWI, the need for the consecration of Russia and prayers for her conversion, and the prophecy of WWII which would begin with a great light in the sky. What are the prophecies associated with this apparition?
Here's a summary of the content of the messages: https://www.medjugorje.org/ol5step.htm
I hesitate to take any information from Cardinal Fernandez when he can't even get his facts straight about Lourdes, one of the most famous apparition sites. It was officially recognised in 1862, barely four years after the first report.
https://www.lourdes-france.com/en/recognition-of-the-apparitions/#:~:text=On%2028th%20July%201858%2C%20the,which%20officially%20recognised%20the%20apparitions.
In contrast the local bishops in the former Yugoslavia have been sceptical of Medj from the early days. The local bishop in 1981, who was able to speak directly to the "visionaries" in their own language, believed that it was a practical joke which got out of control.
And with very good reason. The anti-Catholic messages being delivered, the prosperous lifestyle of the visionaries and the sheer volume of messages over four decades indicate that it is as fake as a three dollar note.
Yet it now seems to have achieved a sort of semi-official recognition insofar as Pope Francis has permitted official pilgrimages.....but, in typically confusing Francis style, he has simultaneously declared that this permission is not to be regarded as recognition of the apparitions.
https://crisismagazine.com/opinion/will-rome-fall-for-the-medjugorje-hoax
Maybe Pope Francis has a weakness for one anti-Catholic message - the one where Our Lady seemed to declare that God is AOK with all religions. Which seems roughly in line with his controversial speech in Singapore on 13th Sept 2024.
https://marytv.tv/october-1-1981-message-from-our-lady-of-medjugorje/
Marpingen in the Saarland had a report of an apparition in 1876 which attracted more pilgrims than Lourdes for a while. But that was a fake. And, in 1999, there was a report of 13 visions by three women. 35,000 people flocked to the site. It took another official report in 2005 by the local bishop who gave 1876 and 1999 a double thumbs down. To my knowledge, this is a unique example of two reports in the same place so many years apart.
All accounts seem to indicate Bishop Pavao Žanić who was their local ordinary was actually initially supportive:
"Are we dealing here with a personal vision or a supernatural occurrence? It is hard to say. However, certainly, they are not lying."
Once it became wrapped up with that complicated dispute between the local diocese and the Franciscans his attitude changed.
That statement is not support, per se; it's simply stating that, whatever the source of the visions, the visionaries had genuine experiences and were not faking a made-up story. There's a case to be made that the visions are demonic in origin. They can be genuine experiences, just not experiences originating from above...
That's a fair point.
One suggestion I have seen is that the "visionaries" were just smoking weed or doing some other drugs. This does not exclude the diabolical.
I have not looked at all the messages, but was not aware of any anti-catholic messages.
I looked at your link--is this the only "anti-catholic" message that you know of? I'm not convinced it is actually anti-catholic.
Just to piggyback on the question, there's one thing I'd like to mention if that's ok. For centuries Franciscans basically held a monopoly on ministry in the country in regard to parishes. Saint Paul VI decided he wanted diocesan priests in the parishes and Bishop Žanić just by the fact he was the bishop there at the time was the one in charge of implementation. The Franciscans in the country really didn't take kindly to this and fought the bishop. Some of the messages were directed at the bishop, telling him moving Franciscan priests was "rash." The seers allegedly retracted this.
I know Wikipedia isn't the gold standard for academic research but it's a good place to start and look over the citations to decide if it's worth believing or not, the article on the bishop has a lot of this info.
This link supplies some more heresies and idiocies from the "visionaries". I would rate the idiotic messages as even more convincing evidence of the fraudulent nature of the phenomenon.
http://www.catholicapologetics.info/catholicteaching/privaterevelation/medjugo.html
Phenomena at Ezkioga, Spain in 1931 is another example of "visions" that attracted huge crowds but were firmly suppressed by the Church. (The apparitions at Garabandal, which I personally think false, are almost a re-run of that event's apocalyptic "revelations.") See William Christian's book Visionaries.
There are a number of initial silly claims associated with Medjugorje, like worshippers' hands soiling the Virgin's dress, that ought to figure in the official judgment as well as the repetitive banality of the daily "messages." Something else I think is a serious blot on supernatural claims is the way Medjugorje served as a conduit for the dissemination of Maria Valtorta's vile work of "revelations," The Poem of the Man-God. Not only did one of the seers praise it, she said the Gospa authorized its reading by the faithful. (The Poem of the Man-God was the second to last work put on the old Index of Forbidden Books.) Perhaps when all the seers are dead and no "secrets" have come true, enthusiasm will fade. But I doubt it.
But as for the "good fruit" argument, demonstrably false relics supposedly worked miracles in the Middle Ages and the same was claimed for modern apparitions that the Church later found "not supernatural" or even fraudulent. I developed an intense distaste for apparitionism in the '90s. It looked like an attempt to find alternate ways to contact God, sought because of failures and corruption in the institutional Church.
In 50 years no one in the pews in my city will remember the synod on synodality (I am not sure how many of them remember it *now*), whereas all of the church ladies that I rub elbows with (normie and trad-adjacent and Latin-Mass-trad; online or cable-tv-only) are aware of Medjugorje and have opinions about it, and have either been there or know many people who have been there and also have opinions about that. My expectation is that the press conference will be a nothingburger partly because no one wants to upset millions of church ladies and *in the mode in which they receive it* it will say something like "continue to believe whatever you want about it" (I think that it will actually say something more nuanced than that), and partly because no one realizes that we do not love nuance and we will project a high-dimensionality object onto a plane.
At this point: "too big to fail"?
In regards to William Murphy and other nay sayers, I went to Medjugorje in 1989 when the Communist still ruled and the tension was palpable in the country (not related to Medjugorje. We were deplaned from our flight which was going to Dubrovnik and had to identify our luggage before we were allowed back on the plane apparently due to concerns of "terrorism". Medjugorje was a place of Peace and a palpable spiritual presence. Just to set the record straight I can discern good from evil and this place was holy. Our Lady's message has not changed over the years. She is like her Son calling us all to repentance. She asks us to follow her 5 requests which are: Pray with the Heart (Rosary) daily, Fast twice a week (Wed & Fri) on bread and water, Read the Bible daily, Monthly Confession and Holy Communion. It the world had been listening to Our Lady the world would not be in the mess that it is in now. She is coming as the Queen of Peace asking us to repent and turn back to God. That is not different from Jesus' message and the Catholic Church. So get on your knees and pray, pray, pray. The Catholic Church and the whole world needs to heed Mary's requests.
Hmmm but the 2-year "queen of the holy rosary mediatrix of peace" apparitions in Necedah, Wisconsin were also ongoing apparitions/visions with exhortations to the rosary, admonitions against error and sin, and prophetic statments, and the visionary's final vision had *thousands of people* attending. And yet, what did the Church declare? Not genuine. And yet some continued to dissent from the ruling if the Church, incurring an interdict. Now look where they are - total schismatics.
Medjugorje also checks many of those same boxes, and the Church has likewise declared against their genuine Marian nature and safety as a devotion, and yet the supporters dissent against that ruling. The only difference is that in the 1950s the bishops still placed people under interdict... in the 80s/90s the idea of interdict was a bygone concept for bishops, and so the Medjugorje dissent went unpunished.
Ask yourself: if +Fernandez came out tomorrow and said "For the last time, it's not genuine! All Catholics must cease devotion, and we place the Medjugorje shrine under interdict," how would the devotees react? Would it be a "fiat" like Mary, or a "non serviam"? Considering the Church has already made her position fairly clear for like 20 years now, odds aren't good...
> Medjugorje was a place of Peace and a palpable spiritual presence.
At the risk of tempting a casual bystander to be curious about Zen Buddhism (there is nothing to be curious about), I could also say this of the grounds of the Pittsburgh Zen Center. You could cut the peace with a butter knife and spread it on scones like clotted cream. If someone was led only by feelings he could come to some wrong conclusions.
I am not following her 5 Requests (since I have something else that I am already following), and I don't think anyone *should* actually fast on bread and water twice a week without consulting his/her regular confessor or spiritual director (if someone wants to undertake physical penance he should first get a regular confessor or spiritual director so that he is not following his own preferences) and *perhaps* also primary care doctor. Why? Because humility and obedience are greater than physical feats.
I have serious concerns about Medjurgorje on 3 main grounds: 1) All the pronouncements and declarations that we have over the past decades either state outright, or at least imply thinly-veiled, that the apparitions are not genuine. The Church has repeatedly reinforced the position that these are not genuine, but the supporters (who claim support and instruction in the visionary messages themselves) continued to openly disobey their bishops and dissent.
2) Medjurgorje has a very complicated and blemished history wrapped up with, and coopted by, horrific partisan violence between Balkan ethnic groups.
3) It seems demonic by the fact that it constantly allures the devoted to seek something outside the bounds of what the Church considers safe, spiritually profitable, and approved for devotion; enticing people outside the "safe zone" and into a known "gray area." If I were a demon, and I wanted to get the staunchly devoted rosary-a-day Catholics, I know they're not going to fall for the same bait demonic influence normally attempts. A demonic-yet-convincing false apparition fools devotees into thinking everything is all fine and dandy, while actually luring the sheep out from the safety of fields of the shepherd that is the Church. All a demon needs to do is coax them into a "gray area." Physical healings can be a compromise if it corrupts the soul away from the safety of approved apparitions.
Plus, the alleged Medjugorje apparitions have a cult following that rivals even the cult (good sense) of OL of Fatima - drawing the faithful away from approved Marian devotions and apparitions. I know American Catholics who have, at significant personal expense, made multiple pilgrimages across the globe to Medjugorje... while the *actual approved real* Marian Apparition of OL of Good Hope (sent to our own people here in the US, with the shrine in our own backyard) continues to languish in relative obscurity and low annual traffic. It seems by all accounts to undermine the Church, which seems very suspect and offputting to me.
Does anyone know what level of magisterial authority is enacted when the Dicastery makes a decision on supernatural event?
Cardinal Víctor Manuel Fernández said today: “The nihil obstat does not resolve or close everything for the future. It is a determination open to developments in time and space.”
https://press.vatican.va/content/salastampa/it/bollettino/pubblico/2024/09/19/0709/01424.html#fernandez
Though I don't think that necessarily answers your question.
Thanks @Luke Coppen.
Medjugorje has the spiritual fruits of an authentic Marian apparition. Notably the number of priestly and religious vocations attest to the veracity of the Queen of Peace's presence. I am sorry that some of you are skeptical and denigrating the requests of Mother Mary's call for world peace which starts in each individual's hearts. If you can't pray a Rosary from the heart or fast (which used to be a common practice in Catholic/Christian believers) or read the bible daily than you are missing out on what it means to be a Christ follower. Jesus said enter by the narrow gate which is not the easy westernized way of living. We are all unique individuals and God has a special plan for each of us. So follow God's plan for your life and be blessed but don't attack Our Mother Mary's request for prayers and sacrifices. God Bless.