Great interview. Thanks for that. I find that most Catholics (both clerical and lay) really are not all that interested in ecumenism nor even see the necessity of it, particularly as a public sign to the world as Jesus said, "May they be one SO THAT ALL MIGHT BELIEVE that you sent me..." I think I am the only one in our archdiocesan regi…
Great interview. Thanks for that. I find that most Catholics (both clerical and lay) really are not all that interested in ecumenism nor even see the necessity of it, particularly as a public sign to the world as Jesus said, "May they be one SO THAT ALL MIGHT BELIEVE that you sent me..." I think I am the only one in our archdiocesan region who even bothers to mention the annual Week of Prayer for Christian Unity and invite others to pray it. I suppose our contemporary heavy emphasis upon diversity works against seeing the importance of unity in most Christians minds. But let's pray hard for it and for the important step of a common Easter date!
I pray the unity week. The Coming Home Network usually does a nice series for it. My husband is Protestant, so we live the fallout of division in some ways. Perhaps others are more insulated from that or perhaps, as you say, they don’t comprehend the necessity. Thank you for emphasizing it in your ministry.
I have no idea why the common Easter date is treated as such a big thing. Unity is based on one Lord, one Faith, and one Baptism. We already have one Lord and one Baptism, we don't have one Faith. If we solved that, we could procrastinate on one Easter date until the end of time. I don't think Jesus or the Apostles ever mentioned the importance of having the same calendar. The Early Church Fathers seemed to like the idea of the same date, but they also neglected to specify a calendar, and didn't seem to think that anyone had schismed by celebrating on a different date - except by extension from the Pope requiring a particular date. Seems more symbolic than central.
I remember reading a book by a Jesuit who went into Communist Russia to minister. In prison in solitary, he scrounged together bread and raisins to make wine so he could celebrate Mass as often as possible. He laboriously calculated out the date of Easter based on what he could remember and his somewhat erroneous date-keeping. Nearby, in two separate cells, were two other priests doing the same thing. They laboriously calculated out... two other, different dates. They could overhear each other saying Mass. He said he felt quite united with his brother priests.
The common calendar might seem like a small thing, but it will make a difference. The Julian Calendar is well beyond its use-by date, mathematically speaking. It’s getting to a point where we can agree on something ‘small’ (it’s just the date of the Lord’s Death and Resurrection after all…) is a good sign we’ll be able to tackle the rest of the issues.
Walter Czizek’s rather exceptional prison experience aside, of course Jesus and the apostles didn’t have to fuss over a calendar! They used probably the 1st century Roman and Jewish Calendars… although it would have been an interesting issue as the early Christian community grew out into the wider empire who don’t follow the Jewish Calendar…
In my experience, you're more likely to agree with other people on the large things than the small ones, and on things that are objective rather than things that allow for differences among reasonable people. For example, I will hold to my opinion on the best ice cream (black raspberry) against any evidence you could possibly produce. But most people agree that murder is wrong.
We've also been arguing over the date of Easter since before 150 A.D., having successfully settled hundreds of doctrinal questions in the meantime.
As far as something small is concerned, I would start with each side formally forgiving the other for every atrocity or offense they've ever committed, and requiring all their adherents to do the same. After all, both sides agree that this is what a Christian ought to do - and it's something that we can be absolutely certain God's grace will help us with.
Calendars and their merits/utility are not a matter of personal taste like ice cream flavours (Blackberry ice cream is indeed delicious). They matter because they ground us in our creatureliness and are a function of the holy capacity to reason intelligible patterns in our universe that reflects a God who is loving and also oriented towards order in creation. Also, “forgiveness” is such a ‘small matter’ we wouldn’t be approaching almost 1000 years of schism! Sometimes the ‘indirect’ approach of restoring order to one small part of a complex relationship bears more fruit and sets the scene for more fruitful progress towards that point we are stuck on. Worshiping the central mystery of Christianity on the same day every year can only be a good thing in that regard…
Not blackberry. Black raspberry. They are quite different. ;)
Sticking with a calendar that they've used for over a thousand years isn't exactly a matter of personal taste, I agree. The customs of hundreds of generations are not so easily dismissed as ice cream is, seeing as ice cream is a fairly recent invention, and not really central to life. However, the question is not one of whether there shall be the discipline of a calendar, which I agree grounds us and provides patterns and order across time, and also leads us to submit our emotions to something external to ourselves. The question is whether they shall use the calendar that they've been using for a really, really long time, or whether they shall switch to suit the tastes and customs of Rome and forgo the discipline they have been following.
I think the discipline of the calendar and law and feasts and fasts and spiritual practices are all extremely important. I don't think it particularly matters which discipline you follow, as long as you don't switch for arbitrary reasons, or for the sake of conformity.
Forgiveness is a small matter among the mountain of issues we have to tackle, because we already agree on it - we just haven't done it. It's also a central issue, and tackling it successfully will not merely be a small symbolic step, but one which will make everything else possible. And like I said, I'm quite confident that God will pour out assistance for those trying to forgive. I am not so confident that a uniform calendar will merit that. If you're looking for something easy, always pick the thing God wants most, no matter how atrocious or impossible it looks.
The argument over the date of Easter must be won by one side or the other, certainly not both. However it turns out, it will only make one side feel victorious and the other, bullied. Or if both lose, both can feel bullied. Even success will not work out well.
The Julian Calendar is, at least nowadays, a polemics thing. But it's wrapped up in broader Orthodox identity, so it's hard for some to imagine giving up even if it St. Gregory was correct (both in his decision to adjust the calendar, and his method of doing so). I can empathize with that sentiment.
And for not a few Orthodox, it's a case of "the measure of one's Orthodoxy is the measure of one's unilateral opposition to anything vaguely western," like how orthobros still take low-IQ swipes at Latin Catholics for stuff like using the Vulgate or kneeling.
Yeah, it seemed to me like a thing that was being argued about mostly for egotism/identity reasons, and not for anything critical. Which makes it an excellent candidate for "OK, celebrate Easter according to your calendar. We don't actually mind. Now, how about straightening out your inclination to let people "marry" when they're already validly married?"
I don't think we'll be able to get past the hard heads on both sides without compromising, so we'd best let them have the things that aren't doctrine or morals.
Great interview. Thanks for that. I find that most Catholics (both clerical and lay) really are not all that interested in ecumenism nor even see the necessity of it, particularly as a public sign to the world as Jesus said, "May they be one SO THAT ALL MIGHT BELIEVE that you sent me..." I think I am the only one in our archdiocesan region who even bothers to mention the annual Week of Prayer for Christian Unity and invite others to pray it. I suppose our contemporary heavy emphasis upon diversity works against seeing the importance of unity in most Christians minds. But let's pray hard for it and for the important step of a common Easter date!
I pray the unity week. The Coming Home Network usually does a nice series for it. My husband is Protestant, so we live the fallout of division in some ways. Perhaps others are more insulated from that or perhaps, as you say, they don’t comprehend the necessity. Thank you for emphasizing it in your ministry.
I have no idea why the common Easter date is treated as such a big thing. Unity is based on one Lord, one Faith, and one Baptism. We already have one Lord and one Baptism, we don't have one Faith. If we solved that, we could procrastinate on one Easter date until the end of time. I don't think Jesus or the Apostles ever mentioned the importance of having the same calendar. The Early Church Fathers seemed to like the idea of the same date, but they also neglected to specify a calendar, and didn't seem to think that anyone had schismed by celebrating on a different date - except by extension from the Pope requiring a particular date. Seems more symbolic than central.
I remember reading a book by a Jesuit who went into Communist Russia to minister. In prison in solitary, he scrounged together bread and raisins to make wine so he could celebrate Mass as often as possible. He laboriously calculated out the date of Easter based on what he could remember and his somewhat erroneous date-keeping. Nearby, in two separate cells, were two other priests doing the same thing. They laboriously calculated out... two other, different dates. They could overhear each other saying Mass. He said he felt quite united with his brother priests.
The common calendar might seem like a small thing, but it will make a difference. The Julian Calendar is well beyond its use-by date, mathematically speaking. It’s getting to a point where we can agree on something ‘small’ (it’s just the date of the Lord’s Death and Resurrection after all…) is a good sign we’ll be able to tackle the rest of the issues.
Walter Czizek’s rather exceptional prison experience aside, of course Jesus and the apostles didn’t have to fuss over a calendar! They used probably the 1st century Roman and Jewish Calendars… although it would have been an interesting issue as the early Christian community grew out into the wider empire who don’t follow the Jewish Calendar…
In my experience, you're more likely to agree with other people on the large things than the small ones, and on things that are objective rather than things that allow for differences among reasonable people. For example, I will hold to my opinion on the best ice cream (black raspberry) against any evidence you could possibly produce. But most people agree that murder is wrong.
We've also been arguing over the date of Easter since before 150 A.D., having successfully settled hundreds of doctrinal questions in the meantime.
As far as something small is concerned, I would start with each side formally forgiving the other for every atrocity or offense they've ever committed, and requiring all their adherents to do the same. After all, both sides agree that this is what a Christian ought to do - and it's something that we can be absolutely certain God's grace will help us with.
Calendars and their merits/utility are not a matter of personal taste like ice cream flavours (Blackberry ice cream is indeed delicious). They matter because they ground us in our creatureliness and are a function of the holy capacity to reason intelligible patterns in our universe that reflects a God who is loving and also oriented towards order in creation. Also, “forgiveness” is such a ‘small matter’ we wouldn’t be approaching almost 1000 years of schism! Sometimes the ‘indirect’ approach of restoring order to one small part of a complex relationship bears more fruit and sets the scene for more fruitful progress towards that point we are stuck on. Worshiping the central mystery of Christianity on the same day every year can only be a good thing in that regard…
Not blackberry. Black raspberry. They are quite different. ;)
Sticking with a calendar that they've used for over a thousand years isn't exactly a matter of personal taste, I agree. The customs of hundreds of generations are not so easily dismissed as ice cream is, seeing as ice cream is a fairly recent invention, and not really central to life. However, the question is not one of whether there shall be the discipline of a calendar, which I agree grounds us and provides patterns and order across time, and also leads us to submit our emotions to something external to ourselves. The question is whether they shall use the calendar that they've been using for a really, really long time, or whether they shall switch to suit the tastes and customs of Rome and forgo the discipline they have been following.
I think the discipline of the calendar and law and feasts and fasts and spiritual practices are all extremely important. I don't think it particularly matters which discipline you follow, as long as you don't switch for arbitrary reasons, or for the sake of conformity.
Forgiveness is a small matter among the mountain of issues we have to tackle, because we already agree on it - we just haven't done it. It's also a central issue, and tackling it successfully will not merely be a small symbolic step, but one which will make everything else possible. And like I said, I'm quite confident that God will pour out assistance for those trying to forgive. I am not so confident that a uniform calendar will merit that. If you're looking for something easy, always pick the thing God wants most, no matter how atrocious or impossible it looks.
The argument over the date of Easter must be won by one side or the other, certainly not both. However it turns out, it will only make one side feel victorious and the other, bullied. Or if both lose, both can feel bullied. Even success will not work out well.
The Julian Calendar is, at least nowadays, a polemics thing. But it's wrapped up in broader Orthodox identity, so it's hard for some to imagine giving up even if it St. Gregory was correct (both in his decision to adjust the calendar, and his method of doing so). I can empathize with that sentiment.
And for not a few Orthodox, it's a case of "the measure of one's Orthodoxy is the measure of one's unilateral opposition to anything vaguely western," like how orthobros still take low-IQ swipes at Latin Catholics for stuff like using the Vulgate or kneeling.
Yeah, it seemed to me like a thing that was being argued about mostly for egotism/identity reasons, and not for anything critical. Which makes it an excellent candidate for "OK, celebrate Easter according to your calendar. We don't actually mind. Now, how about straightening out your inclination to let people "marry" when they're already validly married?"
I don't think we'll be able to get past the hard heads on both sides without compromising, so we'd best let them have the things that aren't doctrine or morals.