It seems like there is a pattern of Latin American orders founded by abusers? I don't say this except out of bewilderment: Legionaries of Christ, Miles Christi, IVE, SCV... what does this mean, if anything? Is it actually a pattern? The enemy attacking good things to subvert them? I know good people who have been or are part of the first two movements, but my goodness...
It seems like there is a pattern of Latin American orders founded by abusers? I don't say this except out of bewilderment: Legionaries of Christ, Miles Christi, IVE, SCV... what does this mean, if anything? Is it actually a pattern? The enemy attacking good things to subvert them? I know good people who have been or are part of the first two movements, but my goodness...
At the risk of being politically incorrect, I would venture to wonder if it has something to do with the mix of the high social establishment position of the Church ("clericalism", more or less) in many of these countries, and the poverty and low average level of education among the people. It could contribute to an environment of low scrutiny of new orders. Then again, these factors are also present in some African countries, and there does not seem to be the same trend there. Though I suppose the Church has less of a history in Africa than in Latin America. In many Latin American countries, the Church has had a prominent position since the 1600s.
The sooner we can grapple with our own complexity, and the neglect for this particular issue that has gone on for at least two centuries the better. Look at the Archdiocese of New OrleansтАЩ credibly accused list. 6 of them were born in the 1800s.
Another factor is the capacity of the State to enforce the law. Corrupt and/or under resourced police forces are a significant part of dealing with the problem. The Church canтАЩt jail people and police forces that wonтАЩt or canтАЩt enforce the law limit the ability for the Church to truly stop predators within their own ranks. Despots routinely use the threat of persecution to try and control the local Church too and there are plenty of despots in Latin America and Africa.
In Latin America of the 20th century, the Church was prominent but there were plenty of despotic anticlerical governments who did genuinely did screw their countries capacity to do anything other than follow their whims. Sometimes it was persecuting the Church, sometimes it was sucking up to the only institutionally civilising force in their society. Africa has similar problems, but since most of them didnтАЩt decolonize until the 1950s and 1960s, itтАЩs in a different stage of the maturation into state capacity.
We donтАЩt know how lucky we are to have low corruption in law enforcement, high state capacity to meet basic needs and, and a high trust society. Predators take advantage of high trust and high capacity societies but at their peril. Low trust societies and low capacity is a deadly combination for anyone vulnerable.
Although in the Middle Ages the Church did use certain monasteries as prisons and consign clerical felons to them. This issue began the problems of St. Thomas of Canterbury with King Henry II over a clerical murderer who couldn't be executed because the Church never executed people. It did sometimes, beginning in the 13th century, hand them over to the civil authorities for execution, but that was a later period.
Sure, but that was 800-1000 years ago. States didnтАЩt exist then and Bishops hired mercenaries to defend their territories and political manoeuvres against feudal lords. The Pope still does, technically. The basic function of a State MUST succeed in is enforcing a monopoly on violence and does so through maintaining a standing army to defend the population from external disputes and a police force to enforce the law and mitigate the damage from internal disputes.
Mexico, by this definition, has been various numbers teetering steps away from being a failed state since its bid for independence from Spain for example.
But if a semi-failed state can't enforce proper behavior in its populace I don't understand why the Church can't require a member of its hierarchy to live in a monastery somewhere without any contact with the world as a form of punishment for his or her sins.
She can most certainly do that independent of a state, but if he decides not to obey the Church, you donтАЩt expect a bunch of nuns to bar him from leaving? And the Church canтАЩt call the police and say тАЬoi, Fr nastybuisness has left the premises against our instruction, can you drag him back please?тАЭ In a liberal
Democracy. In a semi-failed state it would depend on how much the local bishop is willing to bribe the police.
Usually friars rather than nuns. (Think McCarrick.) But I suppose how much the local bishop might be willing to give the police would depend on how much trouble the incarcerated had created.
Maybe. McCarrick, assuming his faculties were intact, he is within his rights as a citizen to accuse the church of violating his rights and could hobble out into the world with no one able to stop him or enforce the ChurchтАЩs penalties, especially now he is laicised. If this were a less developed country, youтАЩd still have major issues if your penalties are only enforceable by the capriciousness of bribery, assuming the police were not in cahoots with Fr nastybusiness in the first place.
IтАЩm a little concerned by that. Latin America and France are beginning to take things seriously. If you attend a parish, are part of a religious order, or a new ecclesial movementтАжthe attitude should be тАЬif I havenтАЩt found something concerning, IтАЩm not looking hard enough.тАЭ Although IтАЩm way too young to have any sense of what it was like in the 70s, 80s, I sense that in the USA weтАЩre struggling with an increasing number of lay/clergy using the appearance of discipline and tradition to cover over or push down our ails. In recent years, IтАЩve encountered so many people who have told me they were asked by the priest to keep secrets in confession. Clearly a small minority of Catholics, but not an insignificant number here are facing issues. Tradition and discipline are inherently good, thatтАЩs why itтАЩs such a good hiding spot.
Not necessarily. The Sisters of Life are a recently founded order which doesn't appear to have these kinds of problems. They were founded by Cardinal O'Connor of New York.
Actually they are precisely who IтАЩm talking about. When I say if we arenтАЩt looking hard enough, weтАЩre ignoring it. ItтАЩs not to cast blame. As in the case of the Sisters of Life, they found their voice a year ago and spoke up about what a priest was imposing on many of them. The sisters said enough with the language of abuse and hopefully are giving courage to many others who are mulling over whether or not they speak up.
My point in the comment you responded to here is that it is highly unlikely that Cardinal O'Connor has any hidden misbehavior which will eventually come out and taint the source of the order, unlike the other orders in question here.
The news is a funny beastтАж if religious orders had these kinds of problems and were suppressed every day for decades, weтАЩd also probably never hear about them because it would be so common place it wouldnтАЩt new newsworthy. ItтАЩs really important to remember when trying to maintain a perspective on all the negativity, something newsworthy is typically a rare occurrence, like a shark attack or a particular kind of crime, even if you see similar bad news clustered in a short timeframe.
Good people, God be praised, are not newsworthy as scoundrels which generally means that most people most of the time are not scoundrels.
All of these тАЬgreat personal prelaturesтАЭ approved by my fellow Pole and Saint. All in the interest of gold and power. One of Revelation 18тАЩs тАЬmerchantsтАЭ. Also surrounded by Curial merchants. His Team Escriva saved themselves from suppression by hiding Charles John McCloskey III, S.T.D until he kicked off 2 years ago. The blinding light of sainthood obscures a lot of the damage JP тАЬthe greatтАЭ did. But hey, do your saints church, the laity will always be around to pay for and do the clean-up.
Do you have evidence that these organizations were approved for the sake of gold and power? A person can be holy and still mistaken about other people. From what I read when I looked for McCloskey online was that as soon as Opus Dei had evidence he was an abuser the order moved to restrict his contact with women. As opposed to what was done with, for instance, Rupnik.
Read the financial scheming behind the looting of Spanish banks by Opus Dei in Gareth GoreтАЩs book. The additional Opus Dei bashing beyond the bank looting is over the top. But Escriva and his Spanish banking friends were a pot of gold for the Church. A pope who tapped into that ill gotten gain has to answer to the Messianic judge like the rest of us.
And please donтАЩt inundate me with ad hoc Opus Dei 108 page criticisms of GoreтАЩs sense of nuance and semantics about Opus DeiтАЩs тАЬlessons learnedтАЭ in creating an infinite web of off the books entities. (A) Rome had to be pretty stupid not to ask where the golden goose was hidden. (B) I knew Gore as a forensic financial journalist at Bloomberg and his coverage was fact-based and fair. Until Opus Dei puts their money where their mouth is and litigates against Simon and Schuster for libel, GoreтАЩs narrative on the Spanish bank looting stands for me. If it looks too good to be true, Holy Mother Church will take it and look the other way.
St. John Paul II, May God be merciful to you and all of us.
It might just be the sheer number of Catholics in South America. There will be more of everything - more priests, more religious orders, more scope for starting and recruiting to possibly dodgy religious organisations.
One notorious example, in a country with a relatively small population and a large Catholic minority, was The Brothers of St G├йrard Majella, based mostly on Sydney, Australia. Its appalling founder, John Sweeney, abused only his brothers - not, mercifully, the teenage boys they were teaching. But Sweeney was only 21 when he founded the order with permission from the Archbishop of Sydney. He was barely old enough to have a basic teacher's certificate. What was the Archbishop thinking of?
Ok, I get that you hate Opus Dei. Getting back to what you wrote earlier, what do you mean by тАЬsuppressions of papal rightsтАЭ? And when has a canonization ever been undone?
Not sure how you put the words тАЬI hate Opus DeiтАЭ in my mouth. Nice try though. I was being facetious about undoing a canonization. Saints make some poor choices during their earthly lives. Unfortunately a very unsaintly church obscures them or mostly covers them up. Uncle Ted McCarrick would be on a path to canonization were it not for a few brave unsung heroтАЩs.
It seems like there is a pattern of Latin American orders founded by abusers? I don't say this except out of bewilderment: Legionaries of Christ, Miles Christi, IVE, SCV... what does this mean, if anything? Is it actually a pattern? The enemy attacking good things to subvert them? I know good people who have been or are part of the first two movements, but my goodness...
At the risk of being politically incorrect, I would venture to wonder if it has something to do with the mix of the high social establishment position of the Church ("clericalism", more or less) in many of these countries, and the poverty and low average level of education among the people. It could contribute to an environment of low scrutiny of new orders. Then again, these factors are also present in some African countries, and there does not seem to be the same trend there. Though I suppose the Church has less of a history in Africa than in Latin America. In many Latin American countries, the Church has had a prominent position since the 1600s.
The whispers of issues in many countries of the sub-Saharan African Church is deafening. https://cruxnow.com/church-in-africa/2019/02/africa-is-also-grappling-with-clerical-abuse-say-catholic-leaders
The sooner we can grapple with our own complexity, and the neglect for this particular issue that has gone on for at least two centuries the better. Look at the Archdiocese of New OrleansтАЩ credibly accused list. 6 of them were born in the 1800s.
Another factor is the capacity of the State to enforce the law. Corrupt and/or under resourced police forces are a significant part of dealing with the problem. The Church canтАЩt jail people and police forces that wonтАЩt or canтАЩt enforce the law limit the ability for the Church to truly stop predators within their own ranks. Despots routinely use the threat of persecution to try and control the local Church too and there are plenty of despots in Latin America and Africa.
In Latin America of the 20th century, the Church was prominent but there were plenty of despotic anticlerical governments who did genuinely did screw their countries capacity to do anything other than follow their whims. Sometimes it was persecuting the Church, sometimes it was sucking up to the only institutionally civilising force in their society. Africa has similar problems, but since most of them didnтАЩt decolonize until the 1950s and 1960s, itтАЩs in a different stage of the maturation into state capacity.
We donтАЩt know how lucky we are to have low corruption in law enforcement, high state capacity to meet basic needs and, and a high trust society. Predators take advantage of high trust and high capacity societies but at their peril. Low trust societies and low capacity is a deadly combination for anyone vulnerable.
Although in the Middle Ages the Church did use certain monasteries as prisons and consign clerical felons to them. This issue began the problems of St. Thomas of Canterbury with King Henry II over a clerical murderer who couldn't be executed because the Church never executed people. It did sometimes, beginning in the 13th century, hand them over to the civil authorities for execution, but that was a later period.
Sure, but that was 800-1000 years ago. States didnтАЩt exist then and Bishops hired mercenaries to defend their territories and political manoeuvres against feudal lords. The Pope still does, technically. The basic function of a State MUST succeed in is enforcing a monopoly on violence and does so through maintaining a standing army to defend the population from external disputes and a police force to enforce the law and mitigate the damage from internal disputes.
Mexico, by this definition, has been various numbers teetering steps away from being a failed state since its bid for independence from Spain for example.
But if a semi-failed state can't enforce proper behavior in its populace I don't understand why the Church can't require a member of its hierarchy to live in a monastery somewhere without any contact with the world as a form of punishment for his or her sins.
She can most certainly do that independent of a state, but if he decides not to obey the Church, you donтАЩt expect a bunch of nuns to bar him from leaving? And the Church canтАЩt call the police and say тАЬoi, Fr nastybuisness has left the premises against our instruction, can you drag him back please?тАЭ In a liberal
Democracy. In a semi-failed state it would depend on how much the local bishop is willing to bribe the police.
Usually friars rather than nuns. (Think McCarrick.) But I suppose how much the local bishop might be willing to give the police would depend on how much trouble the incarcerated had created.
Maybe. McCarrick, assuming his faculties were intact, he is within his rights as a citizen to accuse the church of violating his rights and could hobble out into the world with no one able to stop him or enforce the ChurchтАЩs penalties, especially now he is laicised. If this were a less developed country, youтАЩd still have major issues if your penalties are only enforceable by the capriciousness of bribery, assuming the police were not in cahoots with Fr nastybusiness in the first place.
IтАЩm a little concerned by that. Latin America and France are beginning to take things seriously. If you attend a parish, are part of a religious order, or a new ecclesial movementтАжthe attitude should be тАЬif I havenтАЩt found something concerning, IтАЩm not looking hard enough.тАЭ Although IтАЩm way too young to have any sense of what it was like in the 70s, 80s, I sense that in the USA weтАЩre struggling with an increasing number of lay/clergy using the appearance of discipline and tradition to cover over or push down our ails. In recent years, IтАЩve encountered so many people who have told me they were asked by the priest to keep secrets in confession. Clearly a small minority of Catholics, but not an insignificant number here are facing issues. Tradition and discipline are inherently good, thatтАЩs why itтАЩs such a good hiding spot.
Not necessarily. The Sisters of Life are a recently founded order which doesn't appear to have these kinds of problems. They were founded by Cardinal O'Connor of New York.
Actually they are precisely who IтАЩm talking about. When I say if we arenтАЩt looking hard enough, weтАЩre ignoring it. ItтАЩs not to cast blame. As in the case of the Sisters of Life, they found their voice a year ago and spoke up about what a priest was imposing on many of them. The sisters said enough with the language of abuse and hopefully are giving courage to many others who are mulling over whether or not they speak up.
Are you sure it was Sisters of Life and not Daughters of St. Paul?
My point in the comment you responded to here is that it is highly unlikely that Cardinal O'Connor has any hidden misbehavior which will eventually come out and taint the source of the order, unlike the other orders in question here.
Is there a new Latin American religious order founded after the council that was not founded by an abuser?
Probably. But theyтАЩre not in the news so weтАЩll probably never know about them unless you go looking.
You're right! Here's an example: https://hnaseep.com/about-2/. They look awesome. It is honestly such a relief to have found a counter example.
The news is a funny beastтАж if religious orders had these kinds of problems and were suppressed every day for decades, weтАЩd also probably never hear about them because it would be so common place it wouldnтАЩt new newsworthy. ItтАЩs really important to remember when trying to maintain a perspective on all the negativity, something newsworthy is typically a rare occurrence, like a shark attack or a particular kind of crime, even if you see similar bad news clustered in a short timeframe.
Good people, God be praised, are not newsworthy as scoundrels which generally means that most people most of the time are not scoundrels.
How many suppressions of papal rights does a fast-tracked saint get before he loses his fast-tracked halo?
What on earth are you talking about?
All of these тАЬgreat personal prelaturesтАЭ approved by my fellow Pole and Saint. All in the interest of gold and power. One of Revelation 18тАЩs тАЬmerchantsтАЭ. Also surrounded by Curial merchants. His Team Escriva saved themselves from suppression by hiding Charles John McCloskey III, S.T.D until he kicked off 2 years ago. The blinding light of sainthood obscures a lot of the damage JP тАЬthe greatтАЭ did. But hey, do your saints church, the laity will always be around to pay for and do the clean-up.
Do you have evidence that these organizations were approved for the sake of gold and power? A person can be holy and still mistaken about other people. From what I read when I looked for McCloskey online was that as soon as Opus Dei had evidence he was an abuser the order moved to restrict his contact with women. As opposed to what was done with, for instance, Rupnik.
Read the financial scheming behind the looting of Spanish banks by Opus Dei in Gareth GoreтАЩs book. The additional Opus Dei bashing beyond the bank looting is over the top. But Escriva and his Spanish banking friends were a pot of gold for the Church. A pope who tapped into that ill gotten gain has to answer to the Messianic judge like the rest of us.
And please donтАЩt inundate me with ad hoc Opus Dei 108 page criticisms of GoreтАЩs sense of nuance and semantics about Opus DeiтАЩs тАЬlessons learnedтАЭ in creating an infinite web of off the books entities. (A) Rome had to be pretty stupid not to ask where the golden goose was hidden. (B) I knew Gore as a forensic financial journalist at Bloomberg and his coverage was fact-based and fair. Until Opus Dei puts their money where their mouth is and litigates against Simon and Schuster for libel, GoreтАЩs narrative on the Spanish bank looting stands for me. If it looks too good to be true, Holy Mother Church will take it and look the other way.
St. John Paul II, May God be merciful to you and all of us.
I am a scholar of the Renaissance/Reformation, not modern history, so I wouldn't know about any of this, which is why I asked.
It might just be the sheer number of Catholics in South America. There will be more of everything - more priests, more religious orders, more scope for starting and recruiting to possibly dodgy religious organisations.
One notorious example, in a country with a relatively small population and a large Catholic minority, was The Brothers of St G├йrard Majella, based mostly on Sydney, Australia. Its appalling founder, John Sweeney, abused only his brothers - not, mercifully, the teenage boys they were teaching. But Sweeney was only 21 when he founded the order with permission from the Archbishop of Sydney. He was barely old enough to have a basic teacher's certificate. What was the Archbishop thinking of?
https://www.bishop-accountability.org/reports/2000_Coldrey_Integrity/integrity_23.htm#app4
Ok, I get that you hate Opus Dei. Getting back to what you wrote earlier, what do you mean by тАЬsuppressions of papal rightsтАЭ? And when has a canonization ever been undone?
Not sure how you put the words тАЬI hate Opus DeiтАЭ in my mouth. Nice try though. I was being facetious about undoing a canonization. Saints make some poor choices during their earthly lives. Unfortunately a very unsaintly church obscures them or mostly covers them up. Uncle Ted McCarrick would be on a path to canonization were it not for a few brave unsung heroтАЩs.
My wording was intemperate, I apologize. LetтАЩs pray for mutual charity.
Mr. Eich, you are a real man and I applaud you sir.