to bad for contemporary society and those who affirm every ideology as God given and right and just… maybe the likes of james martin and the gang at new waves should consider the warnings for breaking the law of God both in the heavens and the natural order good luck catholics the hierarchy will have some explaining to do at the heavenly gates..
and one more thing… it is ok to talk and listen to those identifying as gay or whatever but ask the identifying gay or whatever person to listen to the warnings and directions of the church founded on Jesus Christ and those identifying fay or whatever pick and choose and shut down dialogue by calling anyone who disagrees a very cruel name just like those theologians who call a pastoral guidance to their clergy a cruelty to the lgbtq each.
i was told you can’t have your cake and eat it too….
Isn’t Bureaucracy wonderful? Everyone in all the various offices claims that (1) they have a document but (2) they won’t/can’t release it, or, in the alternative, it’s someone else’s job to write one. And it’s the other guy’s fault that this is an intractable mess. Meanwhile, real life rolls on, and the men trying to deal with real people on the ground are left to make up policies (which will all be different, of course) on their own, with no guidance.
Huzzah for Bishop John Doerfler and for Bishop Michael Burbidge for having the courage to address this issue forthrightly! While having a statement from the USCCB would be helpful—inasmuch as it is faithful to Scripture and Tradition—the lack of a statement from the CDF is scandalous. There are untold numbers of souls at stake, not only those who “identify” as “transgender” but many people of goodwill but poor catechesis who think they must affirm this malady in order to be loving Christians. In an age where “pastoral” means little more than being “nice” and where the poorly educated faithful are under constant assault from the dominant culture, the voice of our Supreme Pontiff is needed—desperately. The transgender movement is the heresy of gnostic dualism with a veneer of modern “science” and for the Vatican to not speak loudly and clearly on this issue is unacceptable. It is, sadly, another example of Pope Francis’ unhelpful confusion and ambiguity on these issues. St. Joseph, Pray for Us!
I'm somewhat mystified that there appears to be hesitance (mostly from Rome?) toward committing doctrinally about gender identity, since both theology AND science are on the same page. (That this is the case should be, I would think, indication that the Church is at the vanguard of reasonableness - that and the fact that the secular world is currently hopelessly at odds on the topic [see the UPenn TG swimmer controversy, which will further fracture woke enclaves].) Here's the net-net: theology clearly delineates man/woman. So does science: for mammals, if your body contains Y chromosomes, YOU ARE A DUDE. If you have only X'es, YOU ARE A WOMAN. End of story. So you have only X'es but your "self" tells you you should be a man? Ok, we should respect that, because life is complex - but also, it is often NOT FAIR. Your self-identification, where it conflicts with science, constitutes a burden you (alone) need to bear in this life. There are plenty of these burdens that we all have - think of those born with cystic fibrosis, or leukemia, or any of a number of other genetic maladies that define their lives. The secular world, for whom this life constitutes *everything*, will never understand this; while we Catholics know this absolutely in our very existence (literally). Life is, for humans, transitory, and it is also sometimes suffering - God does not, however, give more suffering to any of us than He gives the grace needed to bear said suffering. The Church should offer its assistance to those who need help in locating this grace.
I personally believe that our DNA is like our consciousness - both are so complex that however much we scientifically study them, we will never fully understand/explain them. To me, these are clear signatures of the Creator's hand in the physical world, and should be treated as such. This means we should continue to explore them with scientific tools, but realize that our tools and our understanding will have limits that only properly considered faith can supplement. Our secular brethren are hopelessly lost on both these fronts; they need our help. We should not be timid about offering it.
Radiolab (a podcast) had an interesting series called Gonads where they discussed sex differences, and in rare cases it can be more complex than XY or XX. What I recall is that all human life begins as female and there is something on the Y chromosome that, if activated, will result in male development. I think such an XY “female” without the activated component would be sterile.
But overall I agree with you; just because there are some unusual pathologies at the fringes that make it hard to set a rigid boundary doesn’t mean the categories of male and female don’t exist. I often think of how anoerexia is related to this - even though the weight set for healthy v unhealthy is somewhat arbitrary doesn’t mean you can’t be unhealthy thin.
Correct, there are rare cases of females with a Y (also men with XX, where one of the Xes functions like a Y due to mutation). I'm not ignoring/marginalizing these folks (many of whom don't know they have these anomalies - interestingly, these don't seem to be a factor in the current transgender phenomenon). Most literature makes the simplified assertion that I did - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_sex-determination_system for example. Even with this proviso, the man/woman categories not only exist, they are "baked into" us - not only genetically, but culturally. Some folks, for reasons which science also cannot explain, end up with their gender self-image at odds with their biology. This actually used to be considered a mental illness (gender dysphoria) by secular science. It is now considered normal, to the point that these folks are encouraged to undergo drastic body alterations, often with unhappy results. I'm suggesting that the Church has a better handle on this issue than the secular/scientific world does, in the context of both the affected person and society.
Sooooo nice to have a "safe space" where hot-button topics like gender identity can be discussed fully, in terms that would get a person cancelled, or worse, elsewhere.
Maybe this is because faithful Catholics are now considered "fringe" to secular America. (ROFL!!!) If so, then give me the fringe any day - I'm happy where I can think/believe freely!
Once again, many mixed signals from the Holy See on a very important issue. And Bishop Doerfler and the USCCB, trying to provide pastoral care, are left "holding the bag."
One thing the Marquette diocese may be trying to address is not only young people presenting themselves as the opposite sex with dress, appearance, mannerisms and pronouns/names, but also what to do for people who are on cross-sex hormones, taking high doses of the opposite sex hormones. This is a form of ongoing scandal. Girls and women take testosterone and boys and men take spironolactone and estrogen/progesterone. Even with “gender affirming surgery,” the person has to keep taking/injecting these hormones for life if they want to retain their appearance as the opposite sex. “Bottom surgery” ultimately removes the offending gonads but it does not replace the gonads with the donor gonads of the opposite sex to produce the hormones they desire, so the person has to take high doses of these hormones to match those of the opposite sex.
to bad for contemporary society and those who affirm every ideology as God given and right and just… maybe the likes of james martin and the gang at new waves should consider the warnings for breaking the law of God both in the heavens and the natural order good luck catholics the hierarchy will have some explaining to do at the heavenly gates..
and one more thing… it is ok to talk and listen to those identifying as gay or whatever but ask the identifying gay or whatever person to listen to the warnings and directions of the church founded on Jesus Christ and those identifying fay or whatever pick and choose and shut down dialogue by calling anyone who disagrees a very cruel name just like those theologians who call a pastoral guidance to their clergy a cruelty to the lgbtq each.
i was told you can’t have your cake and eat it too….
Isn’t Bureaucracy wonderful? Everyone in all the various offices claims that (1) they have a document but (2) they won’t/can’t release it, or, in the alternative, it’s someone else’s job to write one. And it’s the other guy’s fault that this is an intractable mess. Meanwhile, real life rolls on, and the men trying to deal with real people on the ground are left to make up policies (which will all be different, of course) on their own, with no guidance.
Huzzah for Bishop John Doerfler and for Bishop Michael Burbidge for having the courage to address this issue forthrightly! While having a statement from the USCCB would be helpful—inasmuch as it is faithful to Scripture and Tradition—the lack of a statement from the CDF is scandalous. There are untold numbers of souls at stake, not only those who “identify” as “transgender” but many people of goodwill but poor catechesis who think they must affirm this malady in order to be loving Christians. In an age where “pastoral” means little more than being “nice” and where the poorly educated faithful are under constant assault from the dominant culture, the voice of our Supreme Pontiff is needed—desperately. The transgender movement is the heresy of gnostic dualism with a veneer of modern “science” and for the Vatican to not speak loudly and clearly on this issue is unacceptable. It is, sadly, another example of Pope Francis’ unhelpful confusion and ambiguity on these issues. St. Joseph, Pray for Us!
I'm somewhat mystified that there appears to be hesitance (mostly from Rome?) toward committing doctrinally about gender identity, since both theology AND science are on the same page. (That this is the case should be, I would think, indication that the Church is at the vanguard of reasonableness - that and the fact that the secular world is currently hopelessly at odds on the topic [see the UPenn TG swimmer controversy, which will further fracture woke enclaves].) Here's the net-net: theology clearly delineates man/woman. So does science: for mammals, if your body contains Y chromosomes, YOU ARE A DUDE. If you have only X'es, YOU ARE A WOMAN. End of story. So you have only X'es but your "self" tells you you should be a man? Ok, we should respect that, because life is complex - but also, it is often NOT FAIR. Your self-identification, where it conflicts with science, constitutes a burden you (alone) need to bear in this life. There are plenty of these burdens that we all have - think of those born with cystic fibrosis, or leukemia, or any of a number of other genetic maladies that define their lives. The secular world, for whom this life constitutes *everything*, will never understand this; while we Catholics know this absolutely in our very existence (literally). Life is, for humans, transitory, and it is also sometimes suffering - God does not, however, give more suffering to any of us than He gives the grace needed to bear said suffering. The Church should offer its assistance to those who need help in locating this grace.
I personally believe that our DNA is like our consciousness - both are so complex that however much we scientifically study them, we will never fully understand/explain them. To me, these are clear signatures of the Creator's hand in the physical world, and should be treated as such. This means we should continue to explore them with scientific tools, but realize that our tools and our understanding will have limits that only properly considered faith can supplement. Our secular brethren are hopelessly lost on both these fronts; they need our help. We should not be timid about offering it.
Radiolab (a podcast) had an interesting series called Gonads where they discussed sex differences, and in rare cases it can be more complex than XY or XX. What I recall is that all human life begins as female and there is something on the Y chromosome that, if activated, will result in male development. I think such an XY “female” without the activated component would be sterile.
But overall I agree with you; just because there are some unusual pathologies at the fringes that make it hard to set a rigid boundary doesn’t mean the categories of male and female don’t exist. I often think of how anoerexia is related to this - even though the weight set for healthy v unhealthy is somewhat arbitrary doesn’t mean you can’t be unhealthy thin.
Correct, there are rare cases of females with a Y (also men with XX, where one of the Xes functions like a Y due to mutation). I'm not ignoring/marginalizing these folks (many of whom don't know they have these anomalies - interestingly, these don't seem to be a factor in the current transgender phenomenon). Most literature makes the simplified assertion that I did - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_sex-determination_system for example. Even with this proviso, the man/woman categories not only exist, they are "baked into" us - not only genetically, but culturally. Some folks, for reasons which science also cannot explain, end up with their gender self-image at odds with their biology. This actually used to be considered a mental illness (gender dysphoria) by secular science. It is now considered normal, to the point that these folks are encouraged to undergo drastic body alterations, often with unhappy results. I'm suggesting that the Church has a better handle on this issue than the secular/scientific world does, in the context of both the affected person and society.
Sooooo nice to have a "safe space" where hot-button topics like gender identity can be discussed fully, in terms that would get a person cancelled, or worse, elsewhere.
Maybe this is because faithful Catholics are now considered "fringe" to secular America. (ROFL!!!) If so, then give me the fringe any day - I'm happy where I can think/believe freely!
Once again, many mixed signals from the Holy See on a very important issue. And Bishop Doerfler and the USCCB, trying to provide pastoral care, are left "holding the bag."
Have there been any Church documents that discuss intersex persons?
One thing the Marquette diocese may be trying to address is not only young people presenting themselves as the opposite sex with dress, appearance, mannerisms and pronouns/names, but also what to do for people who are on cross-sex hormones, taking high doses of the opposite sex hormones. This is a form of ongoing scandal. Girls and women take testosterone and boys and men take spironolactone and estrogen/progesterone. Even with “gender affirming surgery,” the person has to keep taking/injecting these hormones for life if they want to retain their appearance as the opposite sex. “Bottom surgery” ultimately removes the offending gonads but it does not replace the gonads with the donor gonads of the opposite sex to produce the hormones they desire, so the person has to take high doses of these hormones to match those of the opposite sex.