1) I wonder how many students have died from these increased measles “outbreaks”? I’ll tell you: negligible at best. People saw measles as a kids’ disease of mostly inconvenience, like chicken pox. A number of these vaccines are purely for convenience, and some aren’t even vaccines at all, like the Vitamin K shot. We need to have the mat…
1) I wonder how many students have died from these increased measles “outbreaks”? I’ll tell you: negligible at best. People saw measles as a kids’ disease of mostly inconvenience, like chicken pox. A number of these vaccines are purely for convenience, and some aren’t even vaccines at all, like the Vitamin K shot. We need to have the maturity in this discussion to recognize that not all diseases, and not all vaccines, are the same.
2) the irony that a Catholic school won’t accept a state’s approved religious exemption
3) I’m so exhausted with overtures to “Catholic Social Teaching™️” which is just very simple unrigorous theology that is little more than Post-War Western Liberalism with a Catholic veneer, and often at odds with the entire Catholic Intellectual Tradition up until the 20th Century. 90% of the time, it’s utter bunk.
Negligible? Even setting aside the thousands of people who have died in various measles outbreaks in Africa in recent years, there were 83 deaths in American Samoa's 2019 outbreak. The vast majority of them were children. Call it negligible if you want, but that's more than Columbine, Sandy Hook, and Parkland combined.
This is misleading, too. Why go to examples of measles mortality from developing countries when we are discussing policy in the US? Available treatments and medical care, hygiene, and nutrition play into the severity of something like measles and there’s just no way that the death rate of measles in American Samoa should dictate policy in the US.
Disclaimer because apparently it needs to be said: stating the above does not mean that I think the deaths of people in the developing world don’t matter or are acceptable. They are just simply not relevant to discuss as statistics in a conversation about vaccine policy in American schools.
I picked American Samoa because it's American. Poorer than the 50 states, yes, but still a part of our country. And vastly wealthier than, say, the Democratic Republic of the Congo.
Okay, fine, but 1) a developing region being annexed by a developed one does not automatically make the demographic situation identical and 2) why not compare apples to apples by using United States (contiguous 48) stats to discuss a domestic situation in the United States? It paints a more accurate picture.
In a discussion like this, it is often about assessing risk and weighing the consequences of different decisions, rather than making a statement on whether the death of a particular child is “acceptable.”
That is the virtue of looking at and evaluating the statistics and the risk factors of different decisions. Everyone has (should have) the right to do so. A family may look at the varicella vaccine and weigh the relative risk of chicken pox (risk: low mortality, relatively, but maybe not actually zero, as you point out) versus the relative risk involved in getting the vaccine and make a rational decision. Different families may reach different decisions Much in the same way as you and I weigh the risk of getting in a car with our children (risk level: non-zero mortality!) and decide that actually, it is worth taking on some amount of risk in order to get where we are trying to go. It would be irrational to claim, “driving a car is irresponsible because the stakes are the death of children.”
The risk of a life threatening reaction to a vaccine is about one in a million (not an exaggeration). The risk of death from measles for a child is one in a thousand. Risk of death from varicella (chickenpox) is one in sixty thousand. I think this school should have made an exception because of the child's reaction to a vaccine. But exceptions should be rare. Vaccines do rely on herd immunity and parents that are led astray by grifters, claiming that the risk of vaccination versus the sickness itself are equal will lead to the deaths of more children.
The math may seem simple, but I think the statistics can be used in an incredibly misleading way. I was recently at the pediatrician's and in the waiting room there was a giant poster about the HPV vaccine (helpfully made by the manufacturer) and the statistics were shocking, to be sure - but they provided no context. What does 1 in so many people mean - is that worldwide, or the US? What's the male/female split? By age group? What about access to clean water, emergency medical services, adequate nutrition? What about behavior? What about other health conditions? What's the risk to me or my children based on our own health and demographics? It could very well be a lot less than they say (or it could be more.) The risk is not spread randomly and equally. Some people might very well think they'd rather take their chances that they might come into contact with a disease, rather than certainly injecting a vaccine.
I am not sure what I think about herd immunity anymore. Diseases rise and fall sometimes without any human intervention at all. The big push for Covid vaccines depended on this argument or a variant of it, and it turned out to be untrue, and at worst known to be untrue but they said it anyway. It is rational that people begin to mistrust what institutions tell them when they are wrong or they lie. There are grifters, to be sure, but they don't have to be on the sidelines. Sometimes they make policy.
Well stated. Not to mention that death from vaccine reaction is not the only thing at play- other injuries occur at a more prevalent rate than death, full stop. (Yes, there are complications from various illnesses that are more nuanced than just death as well! That’s why this is not a black and white discussion and why reasonable people may come to differing conclusions here based on prudential judgment.)
1) I wonder how many students have died from these increased measles “outbreaks”? I’ll tell you: negligible at best. People saw measles as a kids’ disease of mostly inconvenience, like chicken pox. A number of these vaccines are purely for convenience, and some aren’t even vaccines at all, like the Vitamin K shot. We need to have the maturity in this discussion to recognize that not all diseases, and not all vaccines, are the same.
2) the irony that a Catholic school won’t accept a state’s approved religious exemption
3) I’m so exhausted with overtures to “Catholic Social Teaching™️” which is just very simple unrigorous theology that is little more than Post-War Western Liberalism with a Catholic veneer, and often at odds with the entire Catholic Intellectual Tradition up until the 20th Century. 90% of the time, it’s utter bunk.
Negligible? Even setting aside the thousands of people who have died in various measles outbreaks in Africa in recent years, there were 83 deaths in American Samoa's 2019 outbreak. The vast majority of them were children. Call it negligible if you want, but that's more than Columbine, Sandy Hook, and Parkland combined.
This is misleading, too. Why go to examples of measles mortality from developing countries when we are discussing policy in the US? Available treatments and medical care, hygiene, and nutrition play into the severity of something like measles and there’s just no way that the death rate of measles in American Samoa should dictate policy in the US.
Disclaimer because apparently it needs to be said: stating the above does not mean that I think the deaths of people in the developing world don’t matter or are acceptable. They are just simply not relevant to discuss as statistics in a conversation about vaccine policy in American schools.
I picked American Samoa because it's American. Poorer than the 50 states, yes, but still a part of our country. And vastly wealthier than, say, the Democratic Republic of the Congo.
Okay, fine, but 1) a developing region being annexed by a developed one does not automatically make the demographic situation identical and 2) why not compare apples to apples by using United States (contiguous 48) stats to discuss a domestic situation in the United States? It paints a more accurate picture.
There is a problem if we start to think that there is an acceptable amount of children's deaths.
In a discussion like this, it is often about assessing risk and weighing the consequences of different decisions, rather than making a statement on whether the death of a particular child is “acceptable.”
But those are the stakes: the death of children.
Right, because we don't have to worry about polio, diptheria, etc anymore! Wonder why... 🤔
That is the virtue of looking at and evaluating the statistics and the risk factors of different decisions. Everyone has (should have) the right to do so. A family may look at the varicella vaccine and weigh the relative risk of chicken pox (risk: low mortality, relatively, but maybe not actually zero, as you point out) versus the relative risk involved in getting the vaccine and make a rational decision. Different families may reach different decisions Much in the same way as you and I weigh the risk of getting in a car with our children (risk level: non-zero mortality!) and decide that actually, it is worth taking on some amount of risk in order to get where we are trying to go. It would be irrational to claim, “driving a car is irresponsible because the stakes are the death of children.”
The risk of a life threatening reaction to a vaccine is about one in a million (not an exaggeration). The risk of death from measles for a child is one in a thousand. Risk of death from varicella (chickenpox) is one in sixty thousand. I think this school should have made an exception because of the child's reaction to a vaccine. But exceptions should be rare. Vaccines do rely on herd immunity and parents that are led astray by grifters, claiming that the risk of vaccination versus the sickness itself are equal will lead to the deaths of more children.
The math may seem simple, but I think the statistics can be used in an incredibly misleading way. I was recently at the pediatrician's and in the waiting room there was a giant poster about the HPV vaccine (helpfully made by the manufacturer) and the statistics were shocking, to be sure - but they provided no context. What does 1 in so many people mean - is that worldwide, or the US? What's the male/female split? By age group? What about access to clean water, emergency medical services, adequate nutrition? What about behavior? What about other health conditions? What's the risk to me or my children based on our own health and demographics? It could very well be a lot less than they say (or it could be more.) The risk is not spread randomly and equally. Some people might very well think they'd rather take their chances that they might come into contact with a disease, rather than certainly injecting a vaccine.
I am not sure what I think about herd immunity anymore. Diseases rise and fall sometimes without any human intervention at all. The big push for Covid vaccines depended on this argument or a variant of it, and it turned out to be untrue, and at worst known to be untrue but they said it anyway. It is rational that people begin to mistrust what institutions tell them when they are wrong or they lie. There are grifters, to be sure, but they don't have to be on the sidelines. Sometimes they make policy.
Well stated. Not to mention that death from vaccine reaction is not the only thing at play- other injuries occur at a more prevalent rate than death, full stop. (Yes, there are complications from various illnesses that are more nuanced than just death as well! That’s why this is not a black and white discussion and why reasonable people may come to differing conclusions here based on prudential judgment.)