Notwithstanding your reply makes no sense, my comment is tongue-in-cheek opinion, yours is accusation without merit, that could hardly be said to be equivalent.
The Church has no “tradition” of that which you accuse it and to suggest it does, as you have, is gravely sinful.
It would take a lot of evidence to convince me that the problems of the Church in Europe can best be addressed by more committee meetings. I’ve never seen the Synodality proponents offer any evidence of effectiveness.
It’s just underpants gnomes: Step 1 Synodality, Step 2 ???? Step 3 A Vibrant Church.
"There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written"
Ugh. This is simply another gambit to accomplish the institutional capture that the German "progressives" and their fellow travelers seek--and have been unable to achieve. The Woke Cult feigns Christian compassion, concern for victims, and hunger for justice. Their desire for "synodal dialogue" will continue only until they have achieved their objectives: lay control of the church to impose secular values like approbation of abortion/contraception/homosexuality/transgenderism, married and women "priests," unlimited immigration, and "science." All of it--ALL OF IT--is a rejection of Christ the Redeemer and Christ the King. In their faux Christianity, "synodalism" is the path to peace with the world, not redemption through repentance and conversions of hearts. Remember, progressives will hollow out the faith and wear its skin like a trophy.
So, every time the ZdK is mentioned, the word influential is included to describe it. What’s their influence exactly? They can’t get enough Bishops on board to support their agenda. The Catholic Church in Germany is hemorrhaging members. Where do they hold a lot of influence other than ending up in the media a lot? (thank you Pillar as always for your coverage of this!)
The way the German Church is going, the mocking phrase "all Chiefs and no Indians" springs to mind. How many Indians will be left in the parishes to carry out any Zdk policies? The number of times I have been inside a splendid church (eg the Cathedral in Dresden) and there are empty pews around me.
If you think my role is to be a passive "Indian" to some priestly "chief" who can't even guarantee the protection of my children, you are barking up the wrong tree. Parents and the rest of the laity have lost confidence in these clerical ninnies.
From my years in a British trade union, Committee Man is a very special species. He (hardly any shes) can stand tedium that would reduce most people to an irreversible coma. He who is willing to read the most boring papers in the universe and serve on obscure but strategic subcommittees will win power.
Then there is an Italian bishop praising one of his priests for his transparency in coming forward after fathering a child out of wedlock… that should be worth a meeting or three…
Agree but the bishop placing him on a pedestal for his “transparency” after an illicit affair seems a bit much… discreet would have been more appropriate but since when do Italian bishops get selected for their “people skills” and discretion? 🤷♂️
It's quite simple. The proper way to see this is as a coup. The Bishops have been given the responsibility to "lead" the Church as its pastors by Christ, who has also given them the authority to carry out this responsibility.
Under the pretense of synodality, the powers that rule the western world (governments and NGOs) seek to usurp that authority. Some Bishops in the Church actively work with them.
Without questioning the motives of any particular person: this attempt isn't simply as boring and banal as it seems; it is deeply wicked on a fundamental level.
You know what is wicked? Molesting our children and misappropriating our money. The bishops have no authority to endanger our children nor our material resources. And their bad behavior calls for lay action. Certain elements will continue to assert that the protection of children and the stewardship of resources is less important than maintaining episcopal overlordship. It is they who are wicked.
One thing I haven’t seen mentioned - should the Church in Latin America and the Caribbean be the goal for Europe? My understanding is that the Church in that region has lost a ton of people to Protestantism and doesn’t seem to have much of an answer to that challenge. Is that really the best solution for Europe? Aren’t they already ahead in that regard?
Maybe the goal is to crush what remains of the Church in Europe under the weight of a proliferation of bureaucracy and meetings? It would be a clever way to achieve such.
How about this as a deal? For every layperson brought into a church administrative position, one cleric is removed from the bureaucracy and returned (assuming they ever previously spent a day doing it) to pastoral ministry? Deal?
There is a lot to be said about "synodality" as a concept - pushing back on clericalism, encouraging bishops to listen to their flock, etc. However, the Church is not a legislative/parliamentary body nor does it need one. There is plenty of evidence in Scripture that shows us that the Holy Spirit does not necessarily move through the crowds, and just because a lot of folks come together and indicate changes they wish to see in the Church, this does not mean the Holy Spirit has inspired it - in fact it likely means that the magisterium is being informed by that same Spirit that it must teach right worship and right doctrine. The more us as people listen to ourselves and place ourselves first before God, the more confused the faithful will be... I am sure I am preaching to the choir but boy I felt the need to say something
I wonder what would happen if the lovers-of-bureaucratic-committee-meetings were allowed to schedule as many as they pleased... and then when everyone showed up, they were informed that the meeting would be with God, so everyone into the chapel for a holy hour or two (or however long it was scheduled for). Repeat for as far out as they decided to schedule things.
They want “synodality”, unless it involves the laity upholding tradition.
certainly not the tradition of our children being abused and our material resources being stolen or misspent by the clergy.
Implying sexual and fiscal malfeasance is a “tradition” of the Church, or its hierarchy, is calumny.
Accusing the lay faithful of wanting “synodality”, unless it involves the laity upholding tradition is calumny.
We parents have a right to protect our children.
Notwithstanding your reply makes no sense, my comment is tongue-in-cheek opinion, yours is accusation without merit, that could hardly be said to be equivalent.
The Church has no “tradition” of that which you accuse it and to suggest it does, as you have, is gravely sinful.
Contact me privately if you want to know what I think of you.
It would take a lot of evidence to convince me that the problems of the Church in Europe can best be addressed by more committee meetings. I’ve never seen the Synodality proponents offer any evidence of effectiveness.
It’s just underpants gnomes: Step 1 Synodality, Step 2 ???? Step 3 A Vibrant Church.
I'll admit, I had to look up underpants gnomes. funny!
Among things Jesus never said: Go out into the whole world and hold committee meetings.
John 21:25 didn't refer to this?? =)
"There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written"
Clearly not. It tells us that Jesus "did" many things. Committees exist to "talk about" many things, not to actually do any of them. :D
Meetings are assemblies in which high-level bureaucrats inform lower-level bureaucrats what they've decided everyone must do.
Ugh. This is simply another gambit to accomplish the institutional capture that the German "progressives" and their fellow travelers seek--and have been unable to achieve. The Woke Cult feigns Christian compassion, concern for victims, and hunger for justice. Their desire for "synodal dialogue" will continue only until they have achieved their objectives: lay control of the church to impose secular values like approbation of abortion/contraception/homosexuality/transgenderism, married and women "priests," unlimited immigration, and "science." All of it--ALL OF IT--is a rejection of Christ the Redeemer and Christ the King. In their faux Christianity, "synodalism" is the path to peace with the world, not redemption through repentance and conversions of hearts. Remember, progressives will hollow out the faith and wear its skin like a trophy.
The synodality will continue until morale improves.
So, every time the ZdK is mentioned, the word influential is included to describe it. What’s their influence exactly? They can’t get enough Bishops on board to support their agenda. The Catholic Church in Germany is hemorrhaging members. Where do they hold a lot of influence other than ending up in the media a lot? (thank you Pillar as always for your coverage of this!)
The way the German Church is going, the mocking phrase "all Chiefs and no Indians" springs to mind. How many Indians will be left in the parishes to carry out any Zdk policies? The number of times I have been inside a splendid church (eg the Cathedral in Dresden) and there are empty pews around me.
If you think my role is to be a passive "Indian" to some priestly "chief" who can't even guarantee the protection of my children, you are barking up the wrong tree. Parents and the rest of the laity have lost confidence in these clerical ninnies.
Germans and their committees…
This idea sounds like the world’s worst camel. A committee designed by a committee!
From my years in a British trade union, Committee Man is a very special species. He (hardly any shes) can stand tedium that would reduce most people to an irreversible coma. He who is willing to read the most boring papers in the universe and serve on obscure but strategic subcommittees will win power.
Then there is an Italian bishop praising one of his priests for his transparency in coming forward after fathering a child out of wedlock… that should be worth a meeting or three…
https://cruxnow.com/church-in-europe/2024/09/italian-priests-exit-for-wife-unborn-child-renews-celibacy-debate/
I mean, the priest is absolutely doing the right thing now, since every child has a right to a mother and father who are married.
Agree but the bishop placing him on a pedestal for his “transparency” after an illicit affair seems a bit much… discreet would have been more appropriate but since when do Italian bishops get selected for their “people skills” and discretion? 🤷♂️
Oh 20 yrs ago, ‘discrete’ is exactly what would happen… and the parish would have thrown a baby shower for good measure too!
"The Synod of Synodalities of Synodalism has failed, let's try a new name."
It's quite simple. The proper way to see this is as a coup. The Bishops have been given the responsibility to "lead" the Church as its pastors by Christ, who has also given them the authority to carry out this responsibility.
Under the pretense of synodality, the powers that rule the western world (governments and NGOs) seek to usurp that authority. Some Bishops in the Church actively work with them.
Without questioning the motives of any particular person: this attempt isn't simply as boring and banal as it seems; it is deeply wicked on a fundamental level.
You know what is wicked? Molesting our children and misappropriating our money. The bishops have no authority to endanger our children nor our material resources. And their bad behavior calls for lay action. Certain elements will continue to assert that the protection of children and the stewardship of resources is less important than maintaining episcopal overlordship. It is they who are wicked.
Something that bureaucrats do well: hold meetings of other bureaucrats. Systematization.
One thing I haven’t seen mentioned - should the Church in Latin America and the Caribbean be the goal for Europe? My understanding is that the Church in that region has lost a ton of people to Protestantism and doesn’t seem to have much of an answer to that challenge. Is that really the best solution for Europe? Aren’t they already ahead in that regard?
Maybe the goal is to crush what remains of the Church in Europe under the weight of a proliferation of bureaucracy and meetings? It would be a clever way to achieve such.
How about this as a deal? For every layperson brought into a church administrative position, one cleric is removed from the bureaucracy and returned (assuming they ever previously spent a day doing it) to pastoral ministry? Deal?
There is a lot to be said about "synodality" as a concept - pushing back on clericalism, encouraging bishops to listen to their flock, etc. However, the Church is not a legislative/parliamentary body nor does it need one. There is plenty of evidence in Scripture that shows us that the Holy Spirit does not necessarily move through the crowds, and just because a lot of folks come together and indicate changes they wish to see in the Church, this does not mean the Holy Spirit has inspired it - in fact it likely means that the magisterium is being informed by that same Spirit that it must teach right worship and right doctrine. The more us as people listen to ourselves and place ourselves first before God, the more confused the faithful will be... I am sure I am preaching to the choir but boy I felt the need to say something
There was a particular crowd, influenced by high-ranking religious officials, that shouted "Crucify Him!".
I wonder what would happen if the lovers-of-bureaucratic-committee-meetings were allowed to schedule as many as they pleased... and then when everyone showed up, they were informed that the meeting would be with God, so everyone into the chapel for a holy hour or two (or however long it was scheduled for). Repeat for as far out as they decided to schedule things.
"Go and make disciples of all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."
Not a lot of synodality there.