If finances are more important to you than time you can go to Howard School of Dentistry and a student will do the dental work which his/her professor will then check and the student will fix and the professor check until the teacher is content. So it is certainly time consuming but in my experience less than half the cost of seeing a regular dentist.
On dating advice: good advice! I'd add that every date (read, every day) is a chance to *be* a gentleman, not just to seem it. 5 years married now, I look back and see how learning to date like a gentleman was part of becoming one - I can see how Grace was at work in each date that washed out, because they helped make me a man who was bold enough to not just propose a date and mean it, but eventually to propose marriage and mean it. God be praised.
Those are splendid dating rules. I can see someone following them and still managing to not have a good date, but I can't imagine it being a bad date.
The only thing I'd add, is that many of the rules regarding eye contact, conversation, body language, etc., are much more likely to come naturally if you socialize regularly and haven't looked at porn in at least a year. That can go a long way toward ensuring your brain is functioning well for the task of social interaction with a woman - for obvious reasons.
There’s lots of reasons a date can just be ‘meh’, you’re not going to hit off with all of ‘em by design! But a bad date definitely involves the breaking of one or more of Ed’s rules of basic manners for human beings.
Oh, so SHE gets compliments on farting the alphabet but I'M not allowed to wear a 3 piece tweed with pocket watch and talk about the differences between Sindarin and Noldor elf culture in the First Age??
Seriously, this is a good list. So much of the insularity/toxicity of religious subcultures would be improved if people could just be less weird and more human.
Also, take a shower. It should go without saying. But young men were recently boys, and boys are animals. So in case your hygiene hasn't caught up to your age...take a shower.
Here we have a Minnesota seminary, the Jose Sanchez del Rio High School Seminary, run by the Institute of the Incarnate Word (IVE), a religious order placed under Vatican oversight due to serious concerns about its governance, formation practices, and ties to a founder convicted of sexual abuse.
Yet the Diocese of Winona-Rochester refuses to say whether it has evaluated the seminary or implemented protections for vulnerable high school seminarians who deserve an environment of trust and safety. This silence perpetuates the same culture of secrecy and negligence that has And is causing immeasurable harm in the Church.
How long will such evasion continue? Accountability and transparency are not optional—they are the bare minimum required to ensure the protection of those most at risk. Until the Church confronts these failures head-on, its credibility will continue to plummet.
I think if you listen to the podcast, there’s some valuable context to the IVE that probably applies here that complicates things for dioceses trying to oversee various activities of religious institutes and orders.
I have to question point number 10. I have the sense that a call out of the blue from someone you only know a little can come off as weird or aggressive or pushy these days in a way I'm sure it didn't before there were so many other forms of instantaneous communication. And, while you can send a text asking if you can call, that's also kind of weird, and if I'm already sending a text maybe I should just say what I would say in the call?
Edit to add: Very good list. Things are that bad out there.
I'd agree. It sort of depends on how long you've known the person before the first date. But she might not pick up anyway if she doesn't feel comfortable, and so then you can followup the missed call with a text message expressing the thanks, and I think it would "read" as normal/friendly rather than pushy.
Yeah I mean as a single young man I appreciate hearing perspectives on it. It does seem like 'I call but she's busy and misses the call, so I send a nice text, but she sees that I did call' is actually the optimal outcome. (for the record I don't think it reflects well on Zoomer social norms that this is the optimal outcome)
Even as a Millennial, that outcome sounds optimal to me, especially after a first date with someone I didn't know very well. I can't remember whether my now-husband did the phone call - instead he went with "when can I see you again" at the end of the date, and we made a date for about 3 days later :D
Mine reached out via Facebook message, but that was only because he didn't have my number, and we were part of a tiny evangelical church like a fishbowl at the time - his approaching me to ask would have attracted a lot of attention lol
Yeah, I appreciate the instinct to say thank you for the date, but I think a thank you /call/ when you don't want to ask them out again, would also be particularly weird. I would prefer a text. (I would interpret the call as a well intentioned gesture, and wouldn't hold it against a guy though, of course)
Yeah my intuition (but I’m 17 years married so what do I know) is that a “Thanks for a lovely evening!” text could serve the place of the thank you call, but if requesting a second date then definitely go for an actual phone call (since talking on the phone is so rare these days I feel like a phone call is a suggestion of intimacy such that calling in person to say thank you but with no intention of asking for another date could feel weird.)
If you spent an evening with them face to face, a call -- that is to say real human to human direct and live contact -- is merited. If she doesn't answer, leave a viva voce message, not a text. If she can't possibly bear the stress of listening to a human voice say thank you, I think this is a helpful indicator for the young man.
I am merely Gen X but when people phone me to briefly thank me for something, I appreciate it. It is a human thing to do. Text communication is slightly dehumanizing.
And of course the stereotype (with not a small basis in reality!) is that millennials are terrified of talking on the phone and will go to extreme lengths to avoid it. I'm not sure where Gen Z lands...
Just call and leave a voicemail to say thank you. Maybe follow up with a text message, but a voicemail is sufficient. Also, it’s not out of the blue, you just went on a date!
Didn't have the benefit of reading some of the original content and commentary, but I get the impression there are a *lot* of young men needing the advice of how to comport themselves LONG before they get to "first date" territory. Put another way, our young men need an extensive tutorial on how to be normal, natural, and gentlemanly in the first place, so that they even have a chance of a date. And those are skills that would also help them stand out from the crowd in a good way.
I was saying to my husband this morning that a great initiative needs to be single sex ‘deportment lessons’. Young blokes need this more than young women who are more attuned to social graces and faux pas.
Excellent rules for young men and dating. My oldest son is only 13 but I’m hoping to instill real gentlemanly courage in him, and dating in a gentlemanly way will be a part of it. For his age we are stressing that if you go to a school dance you ask girls to dance, especially if no one else has asked them. School dances are the pits these days and a young man who will reach out to the wallflowers could do some real good for girls at a delicate age. (I’m also a mom to teenage/pre-teen girls so my mama’s heart is sensitive to this!)
I once heard on a podcast someone (I think an early Millennial) say that she had a personal rule that she would go on one date with any man who politely asked, as a way to reward/ encourage the polite asking of dates. I think that's a good rule to encourage in girls - if a boy asks you on a date (or to dance), reward his bravery with a "yes." (While of course being willing to loudly and openly shame him if he then behaves badly.)
Does this reward him, or simply waste his time if you are not up for a relationship, even with Prince Charming himself, at the time of the ask?
If the woman knows nothing about the man, I can see this being halfway reasonable. If she knows him for a decent sort, I can see it being a good rule. If she already knows him for having poor morals and being bad at boundaries, I don't think there's any reason to say yes, beyond a lack of self-respect.
I would say that women mentally caveat all "rules" that have to do with men :) If you are familiar enough with the guy that you already know he's got poor morals, the rule doesn't apply. But you're right that women who are teaching girls need to be very careful to clarify that the rules are really more guidelines.
This particular podcaster ended the story with, "...we shook hands, said thanks for the nice time, and we parted ways. And that was how, back in the day, I went on one date with Ben Shapiro."
This is totally something a young millennial would say. A GenX would come up with a way to politely decline or defer to the point of declining. Men do not deserve a date simply because they’ve asked!
With the internet awash in dating stories, advice, and competing strategies for taking full advantage of the opposite sex (toxic Female Dating Strategy where you scam as many men as possible for goods and services VS Red/Black pill world the odious Tate brothers peddle), I feel like I hopped the last helicopter out of Saigon with the amazing wife I have.
I met my wife a year before Tinder started to became a "thing" with my peer group. The dating world seems to have sunk deeper into the infinite cliff of the dating Black Hole's event horizon since that app became popular. So much interaction has become impersonal and self-serving that all trust between the sexes has collapsed into the singularity.
I praise God I found my wife when I did in the old-fashioned "real world" in a way that face-to-face contact was easier. I pray that events like the one at SEEK (maybe an area Dioceses could expand into) become the new norm so that young singles learn how to be compassionate, Catholic human beings to each other again.
Agreed that dating apps are a toxic waste dump. I have a close friend who finds that a significant number of men on "the apps" are actually married or otherwise in relationships, and I know that my ex went and found someone new on an app (and then asked for a divorce three months later).
In my opinion "Ask her questions" is absolutely critical. Not necessarily like "Meet The Press", but more along the lines of "I am sincerely interested in learning more about you because I respect your opinion." As a side note, my future wife won me over by agreeing to go with me to a baseball game on our first date.
I sincerely did marry the first guy who truly followed your rules. 17 years after our first date and I think I made a good choice.
Me too! 10 years later :)
Same here, and also 17 years after our first date! We've been married almost 15 years now.
> things really are that bad out there
Yeah, they really are, Ed.
Yep. They are that bad.
Yes
Reading this, I hope Ed asks me out on a 1st date--and I'm a dude who's been married (yes, to a woman, smartass) 40 years.
How you doin'?
Kinda thirsty.
Great stuff. Forwarded it to several young men.
If finances are more important to you than time you can go to Howard School of Dentistry and a student will do the dental work which his/her professor will then check and the student will fix and the professor check until the teacher is content. So it is certainly time consuming but in my experience less than half the cost of seeing a regular dentist.
On dating advice: good advice! I'd add that every date (read, every day) is a chance to *be* a gentleman, not just to seem it. 5 years married now, I look back and see how learning to date like a gentleman was part of becoming one - I can see how Grace was at work in each date that washed out, because they helped make me a man who was bold enough to not just propose a date and mean it, but eventually to propose marriage and mean it. God be praised.
This is amazing. Every young man (and lady, really) who is dating should take this to heart.
Those are splendid dating rules. I can see someone following them and still managing to not have a good date, but I can't imagine it being a bad date.
The only thing I'd add, is that many of the rules regarding eye contact, conversation, body language, etc., are much more likely to come naturally if you socialize regularly and haven't looked at porn in at least a year. That can go a long way toward ensuring your brain is functioning well for the task of social interaction with a woman - for obvious reasons.
There’s lots of reasons a date can just be ‘meh’, you’re not going to hit off with all of ‘em by design! But a bad date definitely involves the breaking of one or more of Ed’s rules of basic manners for human beings.
Good advice. and an awesome closing video!
Oh, so SHE gets compliments on farting the alphabet but I'M not allowed to wear a 3 piece tweed with pocket watch and talk about the differences between Sindarin and Noldor elf culture in the First Age??
Seriously, this is a good list. So much of the insularity/toxicity of religious subcultures would be improved if people could just be less weird and more human.
Also, take a shower. It should go without saying. But young men were recently boys, and boys are animals. So in case your hygiene hasn't caught up to your age...take a shower.
Legend!!
Use soap too…
Here we have a Minnesota seminary, the Jose Sanchez del Rio High School Seminary, run by the Institute of the Incarnate Word (IVE), a religious order placed under Vatican oversight due to serious concerns about its governance, formation practices, and ties to a founder convicted of sexual abuse.
Yet the Diocese of Winona-Rochester refuses to say whether it has evaluated the seminary or implemented protections for vulnerable high school seminarians who deserve an environment of trust and safety. This silence perpetuates the same culture of secrecy and negligence that has And is causing immeasurable harm in the Church.
How long will such evasion continue? Accountability and transparency are not optional—they are the bare minimum required to ensure the protection of those most at risk. Until the Church confronts these failures head-on, its credibility will continue to plummet.
I think if you listen to the podcast, there’s some valuable context to the IVE that probably applies here that complicates things for dioceses trying to oversee various activities of religious institutes and orders.
I have to question point number 10. I have the sense that a call out of the blue from someone you only know a little can come off as weird or aggressive or pushy these days in a way I'm sure it didn't before there were so many other forms of instantaneous communication. And, while you can send a text asking if you can call, that's also kind of weird, and if I'm already sending a text maybe I should just say what I would say in the call?
Edit to add: Very good list. Things are that bad out there.
I'd agree. It sort of depends on how long you've known the person before the first date. But she might not pick up anyway if she doesn't feel comfortable, and so then you can followup the missed call with a text message expressing the thanks, and I think it would "read" as normal/friendly rather than pushy.
Yeah I mean as a single young man I appreciate hearing perspectives on it. It does seem like 'I call but she's busy and misses the call, so I send a nice text, but she sees that I did call' is actually the optimal outcome. (for the record I don't think it reflects well on Zoomer social norms that this is the optimal outcome)
Even as a Millennial, that outcome sounds optimal to me, especially after a first date with someone I didn't know very well. I can't remember whether my now-husband did the phone call - instead he went with "when can I see you again" at the end of the date, and we made a date for about 3 days later :D
My now-husband and I did the same thing. We scheduled- or at least discussed a 2nd date at the end of the first one.
I can’t remember if he called to thank me afterwards, but he definitely called me to ask me out for the first one.
Mine reached out via Facebook message, but that was only because he didn't have my number, and we were part of a tiny evangelical church like a fishbowl at the time - his approaching me to ask would have attracted a lot of attention lol
Yeah, I appreciate the instinct to say thank you for the date, but I think a thank you /call/ when you don't want to ask them out again, would also be particularly weird. I would prefer a text. (I would interpret the call as a well intentioned gesture, and wouldn't hold it against a guy though, of course)
Yeah my intuition (but I’m 17 years married so what do I know) is that a “Thanks for a lovely evening!” text could serve the place of the thank you call, but if requesting a second date then definitely go for an actual phone call (since talking on the phone is so rare these days I feel like a phone call is a suggestion of intimacy such that calling in person to say thank you but with no intention of asking for another date could feel weird.)
^yes, if no second date is desired, I think the phone call would feel weird to me on the receiving end.
If you spent an evening with them face to face, a call -- that is to say real human to human direct and live contact -- is merited. If she doesn't answer, leave a viva voce message, not a text. If she can't possibly bear the stress of listening to a human voice say thank you, I think this is a helpful indicator for the young man.
I am merely Gen X but when people phone me to briefly thank me for something, I appreciate it. It is a human thing to do. Text communication is slightly dehumanizing.
I agree with you. Texting is a
very mediated and emotional-comfort-optimized (at the cost of connection) form of communication. Of course it's all people like to do now.
And of course the stereotype (with not a small basis in reality!) is that millennials are terrified of talking on the phone and will go to extreme lengths to avoid it. I'm not sure where Gen Z lands...
Just call and leave a voicemail to say thank you. Maybe follow up with a text message, but a voicemail is sufficient. Also, it’s not out of the blue, you just went on a date!
Didn't have the benefit of reading some of the original content and commentary, but I get the impression there are a *lot* of young men needing the advice of how to comport themselves LONG before they get to "first date" territory. Put another way, our young men need an extensive tutorial on how to be normal, natural, and gentlemanly in the first place, so that they even have a chance of a date. And those are skills that would also help them stand out from the crowd in a good way.
I was saying to my husband this morning that a great initiative needs to be single sex ‘deportment lessons’. Young blokes need this more than young women who are more attuned to social graces and faux pas.
Excellent rules for young men and dating. My oldest son is only 13 but I’m hoping to instill real gentlemanly courage in him, and dating in a gentlemanly way will be a part of it. For his age we are stressing that if you go to a school dance you ask girls to dance, especially if no one else has asked them. School dances are the pits these days and a young man who will reach out to the wallflowers could do some real good for girls at a delicate age. (I’m also a mom to teenage/pre-teen girls so my mama’s heart is sensitive to this!)
I once heard on a podcast someone (I think an early Millennial) say that she had a personal rule that she would go on one date with any man who politely asked, as a way to reward/ encourage the polite asking of dates. I think that's a good rule to encourage in girls - if a boy asks you on a date (or to dance), reward his bravery with a "yes." (While of course being willing to loudly and openly shame him if he then behaves badly.)
Does this reward him, or simply waste his time if you are not up for a relationship, even with Prince Charming himself, at the time of the ask?
If the woman knows nothing about the man, I can see this being halfway reasonable. If she knows him for a decent sort, I can see it being a good rule. If she already knows him for having poor morals and being bad at boundaries, I don't think there's any reason to say yes, beyond a lack of self-respect.
I would say that women mentally caveat all "rules" that have to do with men :) If you are familiar enough with the guy that you already know he's got poor morals, the rule doesn't apply. But you're right that women who are teaching girls need to be very careful to clarify that the rules are really more guidelines.
This particular podcaster ended the story with, "...we shook hands, said thanks for the nice time, and we parted ways. And that was how, back in the day, I went on one date with Ben Shapiro."
Ha twist ending!
Loved that story!
Signed, a fellow AO listener
This is totally something a young millennial would say. A GenX would come up with a way to politely decline or defer to the point of declining. Men do not deserve a date simply because they’ve asked!
With the internet awash in dating stories, advice, and competing strategies for taking full advantage of the opposite sex (toxic Female Dating Strategy where you scam as many men as possible for goods and services VS Red/Black pill world the odious Tate brothers peddle), I feel like I hopped the last helicopter out of Saigon with the amazing wife I have.
I met my wife a year before Tinder started to became a "thing" with my peer group. The dating world seems to have sunk deeper into the infinite cliff of the dating Black Hole's event horizon since that app became popular. So much interaction has become impersonal and self-serving that all trust between the sexes has collapsed into the singularity.
I praise God I found my wife when I did in the old-fashioned "real world" in a way that face-to-face contact was easier. I pray that events like the one at SEEK (maybe an area Dioceses could expand into) become the new norm so that young singles learn how to be compassionate, Catholic human beings to each other again.
Agreed that dating apps are a toxic waste dump. I have a close friend who finds that a significant number of men on "the apps" are actually married or otherwise in relationships, and I know that my ex went and found someone new on an app (and then asked for a divorce three months later).
I agree with you on the brown shoes. Anyone who wears them with blue or black should be shot.
Specifically tan. Dark brown shoes with navy is fine.
I’ll admit, I had to ask my husband if your comment meant no brown (in which case what with navy?!) but he assured me a dark brown was acceptable.
In my opinion "Ask her questions" is absolutely critical. Not necessarily like "Meet The Press", but more along the lines of "I am sincerely interested in learning more about you because I respect your opinion." As a side note, my future wife won me over by agreeing to go with me to a baseball game on our first date.