> “In any case, the majority of them seem to be alienated from the settings and values of modern society,” he said. “They are also unfamiliar with the concerns of Church reform. Therefore, they will contribute little to creatively opening up the Church and contemporary society to each other.”
What a horribly biased look at things. I would hope that any reasonable Catholic is alienated from the values of modern society!
That line struck me too. I don't want to read into it too much, especially if it's a translation, but the tone seems to imply the speaker thinks that most of these priests are clueless and feckless.
It's always a good time to ask St. Teresa Benedicta of the Cross (Edith Stein) to pray for Germany (or Europe or the whole world while I'm at it). She is German and so it is in her job description.
I have no objections to opening up contemporary society to the influence of the Church (vice versa seems to bear strange fruit sometimes), but fundamentally Vatican 2 said that it's primarily the job of the *laity* to go make the whole world holy, as I understand it; we just do not want to (partly because we do not want to be made holy ourselves, which is a sine qua non; it might be uncomfortable and make a person late for dinner), which is why I think acedia is one of the parents of clericalism.
In social science research, we have a technical term for comments like that. It’s called ‘A Dick Move’.
Not to mention, the sample size is far from representative of a small sample. I don’t think you can draw any real causation effects other than German Bishops don’t seem to know their priests very well at all.
I'd be very curious just what those "settings and values of modern society" are, in his mind. Before my conversion I was secular mostly agnostic and even though it wasn't that long ago I feel completely at a loss speaking to people today from a similar background. Many of them don't seem to enjoy or be invested in anything in particular - no real hobbies (is social media doomscrolling a hobby?) I'm not talking here about vague impressions about "kids these days," but people I know and love dearly.
I really don't know how to reach them. There seems to be a really big disconnect and I don't know how to bridge it. I do retreat, I suppose, into traditional devotions and prayers because I just don't know what else to do. Hard hearts don't listen.
What a dismissive and prejudicial thing to say. Maybe we should explore the reasons why Germany is, in Bp Batzig's words, a mission country. It isn't like the German hierarchy is just now trying a liberalizing approach. I think perhaps it's the liberalization of everything to fit the mold of the "values of modern society" that just might be the problem. Many German Catholics have no voice in the Synodal Way, which has been pointed to and acknowledge by the Holy Father.
Please correct me where I'm wrong (I'm gathering the provinces and diocese from Wikipedia), but there are several diocese and three provinces that aren't mentioned in the article that I denoted with an asterisk*. I'm guessing that they haven't reported planned ordinations for this year?
Bamberg Province:
-Bamberg = 0
-Eichstätt = 2
-Speyer*
-Würzburg = 0
Berlin Province:
-Berlin = 1
-Dresden-Meißen = 0
-Görlitz = 0
Cologne Province:
-Cologne = 3
-Aachen = 1
-Essen = 0
-Limburg*
-Münster = 0
-Trier*
Breisgau Province:
-Freiburg im Breisgau*
-Mainz*
-Rottenburg-Stuttgart*
Hamburg Province:
-Hamburg*
-Hildesheim*
-Osnabrück*
Munich and Freising Province:
-Munich and Freising*
-Augsburg*
-Passau*
-Regensburg*
Paderborn Province:
-Paderborn = 3
-Erfurt = 1
-Fulda*
-Magdeburg = 0
0+2+0+1+0+0+3+1+0+0+3+1+0 = 11 ordinations in Germany for 2024 per this article.
Also I wonder whether ordinations of religious priests are included in the numbers for the single dioceses, but I don't think so. Since they often don't stay in the diocese where they are ordained, this wouldn't make much sense.
I couldn't find reliable information about the dioceses not mentioned in the articles. But I'm looking out for reports on them. My guess is that the annual figures for 2024 will be more around the 40 mark, when religious order priests are also included. But that's just speculation.
The Revolution is spent. Whether it be in its radical form (The Synodal Way), or its more moderate form. (Pope Francis attempt to recreate his youth of the 1970s, albeit without the chaos.)
Nobody knows what comes after. But we know what doesn't. The Church has been in Revolution mode since 1955. Eventually it has to end, everyone takes stock of where we are, and people move forward, restoring some things, compromising on others, and sacrificing to keep the majority of their gains.
Otherwise everything is lost. Something the current old men should ponder.
How so? Liberalism in Catholicism is a spent force, in its moderate or radical elements.
Doesn't mean something will necessarily replace it better. Just that demographically and ideologically, it's spent. Like the US, it's days are behind it. In Africa it's already a corpse. Germany is staring at an ideological abyss.
The best way to defend an institution in an open world is to promote a good and mutual Christian encounters. It’s especially important to avoid political terminology. Important encounters can and do happen in TLM settings and edify a certain portion of the general population in a way that other ministries do not. Likewise, there is immense pain and suffering in the world that involves the Church volunteers bringing prayer out to the most desperate situations. Yesterday, our church group hung out after Mass for a while with a newly arrived group of homeless from Venezuela. Human waste everywhere. They were surprised…They said Catholics drop off stuff and leave. But we wanted to hang out. They aren’t ready to trust us enough to go into a traditional church setting. But our groups track record shows that eventually they are willing to try Mass and confession.
Flipping back to your words, THIS is what feels forced lol. I don't know what your story has to do with my remark that certain ideological forces in the Church are spent. Still around, but they've long stopped moving their wheels as the world continues to move.
The Catholic experience is simply an encounter. Not "belief" as a declaration like many protestants -- that's something that has fused into American Catholicism in both positive and negative ways. It's very unthreatened by those who don't share our exact precise viewpoints. There needs to be more a lot more room for the TLM crowd. At the same time, in some post-Christian countries like Belgium, what you might see as more liberal (ministering to the rejected in society) are the only churches that are totally packed. St Bruno taught a really important lesson when he was abandoning his career as a papal aide. He was totally exhausted with people trying to claim the cross for their specific brand or region of Catholicism. His model was to entirely reject any sort of triumphalism of the Cross, that stands firm, as the world's many versions of Christianity takes turns being on top or in the background.
Possibly, but I think the point is, at least among clerics, there will be increasingly less space for those views in the future beacuse they aren't sustaining themselves on their own. Why? Because its a spent force.
I don't want to hear another word from any German bishop about his precious desire to change the Church, until he can explain why his leadership has failed to bear fruit, i.e. the almost complete collapse in vocations. By their fruit you shall know them: German prelates produce only rotten fruit, from what I see...
I respectfully decline the honor of having my Church defaced by these creatures.
I'm surprised there's not a bigger gap between "Women should be ordained priests" (right out, 25% when it should be 0% assuming they all passed Theology 101) & the democratization+participation of lay people question (30-35%; matter of prudential judgement; heavily dependent on what sphere of governance we're talking about/what you actually envision this looking like) -- I would think the gap is larger among young US priests (but super curious if anyone has real data there)
My guess is this is a reflection of a deeper lack of trust in their bishops: if every time you hear "increased lay voices", it's from someone who means "let's hold a vote on doctrine"; you're going to be reflexively against it; and you're not going to be thinking "hey, we could use some finance professionals in this room" or "every single one of my people has a responsibility to evangelize; how can I better make sure they're equipped to do so"
We do not do anything in the Church based on popularity. Hell no to a parliament as my guide to heaven. Not traditional nor contemporary! The greatest outcome in my mind of the synod anywhere is not a change in teaching but a reuniting of canon lawyers and theologians. Since the 17th century the two professions have had less and less engagement and serious training in the other field. And by themselves, a theologian without the help of canon law creates its own church subculture. That’s what happened in Germany. But the reverse has happened to an extent too in the Anglo countries.
Are you suggesting that ecclesial doctrine and revelation stand on an equal footing with canon law, as if they were two equal pillars on which the Church stands?
@Sue, yes absolutely but the approach of the subject matters has become totally different. They are complimentary & need one another to maintain a healthy balance. I’m convinced that the key to becoming a great Christian in the contemporary era is to reject tribalism and instead seek a mutual Christian encounter. So I like articles that gently critique, challenge, and build up both sides of the coin. https://people.unipi.it/pierluigi_consorti/diritto-canonico-e-teologia-ancora-separati-in-casa/
It appears that the people running the "Synodal Way" in Germany did not bother to talk with the priests who are actually ministering to the people of God in their parishes and families. I suspect they also were not much interested in the views of faithful Mass going, and Confession practicing, laity who are trying to raise devout families.
I have suspicions that the reason they didn't was that they were thinking entirely of getting those outside the Church to come in (by downplaying everything they seemed not to like), and not at all about ministering to those inside the Church. Sometimes I think there's a bit of an assumption that faith Mass-going, Confession-practicing, devout laity can be relied upon to not leave, no matter how bad they are treated or how much of the local Church faith, morals, and worship get torn down. And if they do leave, that's because they weren't really faithful, so they are the same as everyone who's already outside the Church anyway.
I've heard this line of logic from a person defending that kind of behavior, as a sort of preferential option for the poor. I find it hard to explain the behavior otherwise.
Given the clear bias of Bochum, I think it's likely that even fewer young German priests support the Synod's revolutionary goals than the 25-35% cited. Where did the 18 men line up who left formation, and why would they be included at all?
The response rate 153/847 is disappointing but not surprising. But with that small a sample it was ridiculous to divide the men into 12 groups. How much do you learn from that? And who thought it was legit to perpetuate the false "liberal/conservative" split?
26% of these young priests believing women should be ordained, and 30% supporting abolition of priestly celibacy -- we're still talking significant numbers here. This study isn't revealing wholesale repudiation of Der Synodal Weg and its shake-up-the-Church ideas, among the younger presbyterate.
Although I detest the German Synod, I am rather mystified as to why this study was even published much less labeled as ‘ in depth’. The response rate was 6.7 percent by my math. In your life’s work, would you draw a conclusion if less than 7 out of 100 people agreed to answer your questions? This truly is fake news.
> “In any case, the majority of them seem to be alienated from the settings and values of modern society,” he said. “They are also unfamiliar with the concerns of Church reform. Therefore, they will contribute little to creatively opening up the Church and contemporary society to each other.”
What a horribly biased look at things. I would hope that any reasonable Catholic is alienated from the values of modern society!
That line struck me too. I don't want to read into it too much, especially if it's a translation, but the tone seems to imply the speaker thinks that most of these priests are clueless and feckless.
Well, there is no shortage of priests who are clueless and feckless, so they may be right.
It's always a good time to ask St. Teresa Benedicta of the Cross (Edith Stein) to pray for Germany (or Europe or the whole world while I'm at it). She is German and so it is in her job description.
I have no objections to opening up contemporary society to the influence of the Church (vice versa seems to bear strange fruit sometimes), but fundamentally Vatican 2 said that it's primarily the job of the *laity* to go make the whole world holy, as I understand it; we just do not want to (partly because we do not want to be made holy ourselves, which is a sine qua non; it might be uncomfortable and make a person late for dinner), which is why I think acedia is one of the parents of clericalism.
Late for dinner? It might make you go off into the Blue on a mad adventure, without any pocket-handkerchiefs!
In social science research, we have a technical term for comments like that. It’s called ‘A Dick Move’.
Not to mention, the sample size is far from representative of a small sample. I don’t think you can draw any real causation effects other than German Bishops don’t seem to know their priests very well at all.
I'd be very curious just what those "settings and values of modern society" are, in his mind. Before my conversion I was secular mostly agnostic and even though it wasn't that long ago I feel completely at a loss speaking to people today from a similar background. Many of them don't seem to enjoy or be invested in anything in particular - no real hobbies (is social media doomscrolling a hobby?) I'm not talking here about vague impressions about "kids these days," but people I know and love dearly.
I really don't know how to reach them. There seems to be a really big disconnect and I don't know how to bridge it. I do retreat, I suppose, into traditional devotions and prayers because I just don't know what else to do. Hard hearts don't listen.
What a dismissive and prejudicial thing to say. Maybe we should explore the reasons why Germany is, in Bp Batzig's words, a mission country. It isn't like the German hierarchy is just now trying a liberalizing approach. I think perhaps it's the liberalization of everything to fit the mold of the "values of modern society" that just might be the problem. Many German Catholics have no voice in the Synodal Way, which has been pointed to and acknowledge by the Holy Father.
"Am I out of touch? No, it's the children who are wrong." - Principal Skinner
Thank you for this write-up Luke.
Please correct me where I'm wrong (I'm gathering the provinces and diocese from Wikipedia), but there are several diocese and three provinces that aren't mentioned in the article that I denoted with an asterisk*. I'm guessing that they haven't reported planned ordinations for this year?
Bamberg Province:
-Bamberg = 0
-Eichstätt = 2
-Speyer*
-Würzburg = 0
Berlin Province:
-Berlin = 1
-Dresden-Meißen = 0
-Görlitz = 0
Cologne Province:
-Cologne = 3
-Aachen = 1
-Essen = 0
-Limburg*
-Münster = 0
-Trier*
Breisgau Province:
-Freiburg im Breisgau*
-Mainz*
-Rottenburg-Stuttgart*
Hamburg Province:
-Hamburg*
-Hildesheim*
-Osnabrück*
Munich and Freising Province:
-Munich and Freising*
-Augsburg*
-Passau*
-Regensburg*
Paderborn Province:
-Paderborn = 3
-Erfurt = 1
-Fulda*
-Magdeburg = 0
0+2+0+1+0+0+3+1+0+0+3+1+0 = 11 ordinations in Germany for 2024 per this article.
2020 = 67
2021 = 62
2022 = 45
2023 = ?
2024 = 11
Now THATs a trend.
There was one ordination in my diocese, Freiburg, this year (article in German: https://www.ebfr.de/erzdioezese-freiburg/erzbischoefliches-ordinariat/hauptabteilung-2-pastorales-personal/referat-priester/detail/nachricht/id/201969-priesterweihe-im-freiburger-muenster/?cb-id=12159409), so those dioceses omitted in this article also had some ordinations and the total number is higher than 11.
Also I wonder whether ordinations of religious priests are included in the numbers for the single dioceses, but I don't think so. Since they often don't stay in the diocese where they are ordained, this wouldn't make much sense.
Thank you. That's what I was thinking.
If the remaining dioceses follow the same trend of 0, 1, and 3 ordinations that'd put them right around the 2022 number.
I couldn't find reliable information about the dioceses not mentioned in the articles. But I'm looking out for reports on them. My guess is that the annual figures for 2024 will be more around the 40 mark, when religious order priests are also included. But that's just speculation.
A recent update from Trier: https://www.bistum-trier.de/unser-bistum/personen-und-aemter/geweiht-beauftragt/priester-2024/index.html
"Therefore, they will contribute little to creatively opening up the Church and contemporary society to each other."
Ouch.
The Revolution is spent. Whether it be in its radical form (The Synodal Way), or its more moderate form. (Pope Francis attempt to recreate his youth of the 1970s, albeit without the chaos.)
Nobody knows what comes after. But we know what doesn't. The Church has been in Revolution mode since 1955. Eventually it has to end, everyone takes stock of where we are, and people move forward, restoring some things, compromising on others, and sacrificing to keep the majority of their gains.
Otherwise everything is lost. Something the current old men should ponder.
This feels forced.
How so? Liberalism in Catholicism is a spent force, in its moderate or radical elements.
Doesn't mean something will necessarily replace it better. Just that demographically and ideologically, it's spent. Like the US, it's days are behind it. In Africa it's already a corpse. Germany is staring at an ideological abyss.
Thats all it says. Where is it wrong?
The best way to defend an institution in an open world is to promote a good and mutual Christian encounters. It’s especially important to avoid political terminology. Important encounters can and do happen in TLM settings and edify a certain portion of the general population in a way that other ministries do not. Likewise, there is immense pain and suffering in the world that involves the Church volunteers bringing prayer out to the most desperate situations. Yesterday, our church group hung out after Mass for a while with a newly arrived group of homeless from Venezuela. Human waste everywhere. They were surprised…They said Catholics drop off stuff and leave. But we wanted to hang out. They aren’t ready to trust us enough to go into a traditional church setting. But our groups track record shows that eventually they are willing to try Mass and confession.
Flipping back to your words, THIS is what feels forced lol. I don't know what your story has to do with my remark that certain ideological forces in the Church are spent. Still around, but they've long stopped moving their wheels as the world continues to move.
The Catholic experience is simply an encounter. Not "belief" as a declaration like many protestants -- that's something that has fused into American Catholicism in both positive and negative ways. It's very unthreatened by those who don't share our exact precise viewpoints. There needs to be more a lot more room for the TLM crowd. At the same time, in some post-Christian countries like Belgium, what you might see as more liberal (ministering to the rejected in society) are the only churches that are totally packed. St Bruno taught a really important lesson when he was abandoning his career as a papal aide. He was totally exhausted with people trying to claim the cross for their specific brand or region of Catholicism. His model was to entirely reject any sort of triumphalism of the Cross, that stands firm, as the world's many versions of Christianity takes turns being on top or in the background.
Possibly, but I think the point is, at least among clerics, there will be increasingly less space for those views in the future beacuse they aren't sustaining themselves on their own. Why? Because its a spent force.
I don't want to hear another word from any German bishop about his precious desire to change the Church, until he can explain why his leadership has failed to bear fruit, i.e. the almost complete collapse in vocations. By their fruit you shall know them: German prelates produce only rotten fruit, from what I see...
I respectfully decline the honor of having my Church defaced by these creatures.
Not to mention collapse in number of German Catholics.
I'm surprised there's not a bigger gap between "Women should be ordained priests" (right out, 25% when it should be 0% assuming they all passed Theology 101) & the democratization+participation of lay people question (30-35%; matter of prudential judgement; heavily dependent on what sphere of governance we're talking about/what you actually envision this looking like) -- I would think the gap is larger among young US priests (but super curious if anyone has real data there)
My guess is this is a reflection of a deeper lack of trust in their bishops: if every time you hear "increased lay voices", it's from someone who means "let's hold a vote on doctrine"; you're going to be reflexively against it; and you're not going to be thinking "hey, we could use some finance professionals in this room" or "every single one of my people has a responsibility to evangelize; how can I better make sure they're equipped to do so"
We do not do anything in the Church based on popularity. Hell no to a parliament as my guide to heaven. Not traditional nor contemporary! The greatest outcome in my mind of the synod anywhere is not a change in teaching but a reuniting of canon lawyers and theologians. Since the 17th century the two professions have had less and less engagement and serious training in the other field. And by themselves, a theologian without the help of canon law creates its own church subculture. That’s what happened in Germany. But the reverse has happened to an extent too in the Anglo countries.
Are you suggesting that ecclesial doctrine and revelation stand on an equal footing with canon law, as if they were two equal pillars on which the Church stands?
Canon law is based on ecclesial doctrine, which is based on revelation.
@Sue, yes absolutely but the approach of the subject matters has become totally different. They are complimentary & need one another to maintain a healthy balance. I’m convinced that the key to becoming a great Christian in the contemporary era is to reject tribalism and instead seek a mutual Christian encounter. So I like articles that gently critique, challenge, and build up both sides of the coin. https://people.unipi.it/pierluigi_consorti/diritto-canonico-e-teologia-ancora-separati-in-casa/
@Justin, no.
It appears that the people running the "Synodal Way" in Germany did not bother to talk with the priests who are actually ministering to the people of God in their parishes and families. I suspect they also were not much interested in the views of faithful Mass going, and Confession practicing, laity who are trying to raise devout families.
I have suspicions that the reason they didn't was that they were thinking entirely of getting those outside the Church to come in (by downplaying everything they seemed not to like), and not at all about ministering to those inside the Church. Sometimes I think there's a bit of an assumption that faith Mass-going, Confession-practicing, devout laity can be relied upon to not leave, no matter how bad they are treated or how much of the local Church faith, morals, and worship get torn down. And if they do leave, that's because they weren't really faithful, so they are the same as everyone who's already outside the Church anyway.
I've heard this line of logic from a person defending that kind of behavior, as a sort of preferential option for the poor. I find it hard to explain the behavior otherwise.
Given the clear bias of Bochum, I think it's likely that even fewer young German priests support the Synod's revolutionary goals than the 25-35% cited. Where did the 18 men line up who left formation, and why would they be included at all?
The response rate 153/847 is disappointing but not surprising. But with that small a sample it was ridiculous to divide the men into 12 groups. How much do you learn from that? And who thought it was legit to perpetuate the false "liberal/conservative" split?
26% of these young priests believing women should be ordained, and 30% supporting abolition of priestly celibacy -- we're still talking significant numbers here. This study isn't revealing wholesale repudiation of Der Synodal Weg and its shake-up-the-Church ideas, among the younger presbyterate.
Although I detest the German Synod, I am rather mystified as to why this study was even published much less labeled as ‘ in depth’. The response rate was 6.7 percent by my math. In your life’s work, would you draw a conclusion if less than 7 out of 100 people agreed to answer your questions? This truly is fake news.
"The survey showed limited support for women priests, married clergy..."
Based on the number of ordinations, it seems the German laity clearly have limited support for male, celibate priests.