I'd change one variable in the research, though. Rather than comparing active priests to number of Lay Faithful, the active priests should be compared to REGULARLY PRACTICING Faithful. In the Cinci Archdiocese, we have about 500,000 Catholics on the books, but around 110,000 Catholics who practice. That paints a wildly different picture,…
I'd change one variable in the research, though. Rather than comparing active priests to number of Lay Faithful, the active priests should be compared to REGULARLY PRACTICING Faithful. In the Cinci Archdiocese, we have about 500,000 Catholics on the books, but around 110,000 Catholics who practice. That paints a wildly different picture, as I'm sure it would for many other dioceses. Once again, I think the numbers indicate the "priest shortage" has far less to do with ordained priests (in many cases), and far more to do with the Baptismal Priesthood.
Agreed, it’s easy to blame the lack of priests on the lack of priests, but that gets us nowhere. Good families/communities are what enable young men/women to respond to the call.
Yes, but good priests often inspire and encourage the development of good Catholic families which then tend to have more vocations to the priesthood. Fewer good priests, fewer good families, fewer new priests, like a circle steadily getting smaller.
The Holy Spirit is constantly at work revitalizing the Church. To assent to the "circle getting smaller" outlook is to despair in the ongoing action of the Almighty and a reduction of the mystery of vocation to deterministic predictors.
Good, personable, attractive priests are often the catalyst and locus of revival but putting the blame on the clergy (and pressure on seminarians not to "quit") does nothing to grow vocations and can often stifle them. There is plenty of room for the lay faithful to participate in the saving action of the Church and more access to catechetical resources than ever before. The future is hopeful because Christ is present in the Church today as he was in Galilee. Despair is never the work of God.
I think the future (really, the present) is extraordinarily hopeful! I can only speak for my diocese, but the slow-but-steady growth in faithful families, single young adults and college students, and priests and religious is nothing short of extraordinary. The Holy Spirit is powerfully at work in the Church, and I only mentioned the active-priest-to-active-parishioner ratio to highlight that we all need to live out our Baptismal Priesthood more faithfully and help each other to do the same - you know, like, offline.
I am actually more positive then you think, because the new generation of priests is more inspiring to kids like my own than previous generations. My point is good priests are needed to energize young people and new vocations. The circle will get smaller if there is not enough of them. There is a young priest chaplain at my kid's high school who, simply by being a good priest, is much more influential to the students than all the lay teachers are, no matter how holy or good educators they are. Lay people simply can never be equal to that task.
I really want this to be true because I raised a seminarian. ;) However, SO many of the young men my son knows are either college or adult converts to the faith, or had “conversion” (in quotations to distinguish from actual converts to the faith) experiences as young adults after being raised not attending Mass regularly, or didn’t have familial support for their vocations. So I’m not sure if “good families raise priests” is even necessarily true in the majority of cases. It CAN be true, obviously! But sometimes adversity brings about conversion and it’s there that vocations occur.
I think both things can be true! Today’s seminarians (as well as the past couple generations of seminarians) were raised in families and catechetical environments that were more likely to have been formed in the 70s, 80s, and 90s, with all that that implies about the practice of the faith in most families, how well their parents were catechized and able to pass on the faith, etc. So it makes sense that there would be more seminarians who had a story of “had a conversion or reversion experience.” As things change going forward, it MAY start to be true that a higher percentage of vocations may start to come from a background of “received good catechesis in a Catholic family and community.” I guess we’ll see!
Obviously I do know it can be true; we practice the faith seriously and raised a seminarian. But anecdotally, most of his classmates and friends he met while discerning didn’t have that kind of background. One had been an emancipated minor, several have families that were opposed to the vocation, at least two were adult converts to the faith, and A LOT were raised in very nice families that just didn’t attend Mass that frequently. YES there are also some who are from practicing Catholic families including a few homeschool graduates. But they are the exception, not the rule.
Totally. And after writing that first response, it did occur to me that it is naive to think that now, the majority of seminarians would come from super devout, practicing families because we know that over time, the number of those practicing the faith has… gone down. Luckily we do know that God provides through so many different avenues, even unexpected or rare ones!
Absolutely! (I think we cross-posted a moment ago.) It is actually REALLY cool to see who these men are, where they come from, and the path that led them to the priesthood. Just so awe-inspiring.
Also these young men are all under the age of about 26 so primarily born around, or slightly before or after, the year 2000. Most were children or young teens during the Benedict pontificate, which I think many people consider the JPII-Benedict years as a period of fruitfulness, growth, and inspiration back to orthodox & serious practice of the faith. So, I guess I’m thinking, a man’s path to the priesthood is born from his own experience and encounter with Christ, not simply his parents’. I think it’s complex and nuanced. The Pillar reported a few months ago on the situation with homeschoolers in San Diego and mentioned that around 10-12% of newly ordained priests had been homeschooled, and data indicates that number could rise as high as 20% of ordinands in the coming years. So that DOES point to the phenomenon of faithful families raising priests, which I definitely see. I just also see that the other 85% or so have REALLY varied backgrounds and it’s not so simple. That’s my main point from observing the men my son knows.
Hence families/communities, college catholic centers are where many young adults (including myself) experience true community for the first time. I anecdotally know some "late bloomer" seminarians/priests but it takes a special type of man to leave all of his possessions behind.
You're exactly right, Father! And the statistic that really matters when calculating priest ratios is the Mass attendance rate in the diocese. When that number is known, all the ratios look different, and the patterns look different too.
Here in Australia we are more in danger of running out of laity than of priests.
Interesting point about the ease of importing priests, Father. I clicked through to the report and I found it extremely interesting that the “Tier 3” dioceses (100,000-300,000 Catholics living within the diocese) had both the most vocations AND the most extern priests—with extern priests serving in 955 parishes, compared with only 717 parishes in Tier 1 dioceses (those with more than 750,000 Catholics) being staffed by extern priests and even fewer in Tier 2 (300k-750k Catholics) and Tier 4 (fewer than 100k Catholics) dioceses. It just seems that a well-staffed, amply ministered diocese thrives (if vocation numbers are a sign of thriving).
It’s complicated. In most agreement with all of the very very positive and encouragement statements in this thread, especially on the importance of adoration and availability of the sacraments…. It’s in contrast to where I live in Arlington Diocese where there is both immense good and attention to parish formation. I could help the diocese start up at least six new over-capacity parishes just for all of the people who want to come back but feel unsafe here, and I am absolutely overwhelmed with people reaching out to share their horror stories of being pushed out of their parish because they didn’t fit the mold of a compliant and politically conservative person. So as someone who loves the Latin Mass and am conservative, I’m also gay and know just how awful we can be to one another here. FWIW it’s been 12 hours since someone last reached out to me from that diocese for help.
It sounds like you are in a position to do a lot of good for a number of disenfranchised individuals. It's only anecdotal and on the opposite side of the spectrum, but I have a friend who was argued out of a bible study on her first appearance by boys who couldn't conceive of a woman going hunting.
I would hope there would be at least one sympathetic pastor in the area for you and your friends to congregate around. It doesn't justify the exclusivity you've experienced, but I would imagine there is an even greater need for "non-conformative" community than is otherwise known. A good pastor would recognize the need for this and support some sort of initiative.
Cincinnati’s ordination numbers are the best in all the Tier 2 dioceses (97% of “replacement rate”), so you’ve got that going for you there. The other thing to consider is priests don’t ONLY minister to practicing parishioners. They get sick calls, do marriage prep (and many other things I’m sure I’m overlooking) for people who don’t regularly attend Mass.
They may be ministering to people who have never been members of the Church. One of my colleagues circa 1990 approached local priests to explore the Catholic faith. My previous parish priest was a regular on the local radio station's weekly religious program. He had no direct idea of who his words were reaching. Half an hour after the news of Pope Benedict's resignation broke, he had the local BBC journalist on the phone seeking instant comment. Mercifully a parishioner had already rung to tell him the hot news, so he had been granted a few minutes to Google for an explanation. It lall took some of his limited time.
That is a really interesting observation as well. A priest’s influence and responsibility extend well beyond the laity who actually show up for Mass on a regular basis. I have to try not to think about the enormity of this task too much or I get kind of freaked out for my son’s future (provided that he completes seminary and is ordained, obviously).
I'd change one variable in the research, though. Rather than comparing active priests to number of Lay Faithful, the active priests should be compared to REGULARLY PRACTICING Faithful. In the Cinci Archdiocese, we have about 500,000 Catholics on the books, but around 110,000 Catholics who practice. That paints a wildly different picture, as I'm sure it would for many other dioceses. Once again, I think the numbers indicate the "priest shortage" has far less to do with ordained priests (in many cases), and far more to do with the Baptismal Priesthood.
Agreed, it’s easy to blame the lack of priests on the lack of priests, but that gets us nowhere. Good families/communities are what enable young men/women to respond to the call.
Yes, but good priests often inspire and encourage the development of good Catholic families which then tend to have more vocations to the priesthood. Fewer good priests, fewer good families, fewer new priests, like a circle steadily getting smaller.
The Holy Spirit is constantly at work revitalizing the Church. To assent to the "circle getting smaller" outlook is to despair in the ongoing action of the Almighty and a reduction of the mystery of vocation to deterministic predictors.
Good, personable, attractive priests are often the catalyst and locus of revival but putting the blame on the clergy (and pressure on seminarians not to "quit") does nothing to grow vocations and can often stifle them. There is plenty of room for the lay faithful to participate in the saving action of the Church and more access to catechetical resources than ever before. The future is hopeful because Christ is present in the Church today as he was in Galilee. Despair is never the work of God.
I think the future (really, the present) is extraordinarily hopeful! I can only speak for my diocese, but the slow-but-steady growth in faithful families, single young adults and college students, and priests and religious is nothing short of extraordinary. The Holy Spirit is powerfully at work in the Church, and I only mentioned the active-priest-to-active-parishioner ratio to highlight that we all need to live out our Baptismal Priesthood more faithfully and help each other to do the same - you know, like, offline.
I am actually more positive then you think, because the new generation of priests is more inspiring to kids like my own than previous generations. My point is good priests are needed to energize young people and new vocations. The circle will get smaller if there is not enough of them. There is a young priest chaplain at my kid's high school who, simply by being a good priest, is much more influential to the students than all the lay teachers are, no matter how holy or good educators they are. Lay people simply can never be equal to that task.
I really want this to be true because I raised a seminarian. ;) However, SO many of the young men my son knows are either college or adult converts to the faith, or had “conversion” (in quotations to distinguish from actual converts to the faith) experiences as young adults after being raised not attending Mass regularly, or didn’t have familial support for their vocations. So I’m not sure if “good families raise priests” is even necessarily true in the majority of cases. It CAN be true, obviously! But sometimes adversity brings about conversion and it’s there that vocations occur.
I think both things can be true! Today’s seminarians (as well as the past couple generations of seminarians) were raised in families and catechetical environments that were more likely to have been formed in the 70s, 80s, and 90s, with all that that implies about the practice of the faith in most families, how well their parents were catechized and able to pass on the faith, etc. So it makes sense that there would be more seminarians who had a story of “had a conversion or reversion experience.” As things change going forward, it MAY start to be true that a higher percentage of vocations may start to come from a background of “received good catechesis in a Catholic family and community.” I guess we’ll see!
Obviously I do know it can be true; we practice the faith seriously and raised a seminarian. But anecdotally, most of his classmates and friends he met while discerning didn’t have that kind of background. One had been an emancipated minor, several have families that were opposed to the vocation, at least two were adult converts to the faith, and A LOT were raised in very nice families that just didn’t attend Mass that frequently. YES there are also some who are from practicing Catholic families including a few homeschool graduates. But they are the exception, not the rule.
Totally. And after writing that first response, it did occur to me that it is naive to think that now, the majority of seminarians would come from super devout, practicing families because we know that over time, the number of those practicing the faith has… gone down. Luckily we do know that God provides through so many different avenues, even unexpected or rare ones!
Absolutely! (I think we cross-posted a moment ago.) It is actually REALLY cool to see who these men are, where they come from, and the path that led them to the priesthood. Just so awe-inspiring.
Also these young men are all under the age of about 26 so primarily born around, or slightly before or after, the year 2000. Most were children or young teens during the Benedict pontificate, which I think many people consider the JPII-Benedict years as a period of fruitfulness, growth, and inspiration back to orthodox & serious practice of the faith. So, I guess I’m thinking, a man’s path to the priesthood is born from his own experience and encounter with Christ, not simply his parents’. I think it’s complex and nuanced. The Pillar reported a few months ago on the situation with homeschoolers in San Diego and mentioned that around 10-12% of newly ordained priests had been homeschooled, and data indicates that number could rise as high as 20% of ordinands in the coming years. So that DOES point to the phenomenon of faithful families raising priests, which I definitely see. I just also see that the other 85% or so have REALLY varied backgrounds and it’s not so simple. That’s my main point from observing the men my son knows.
Hence families/communities, college catholic centers are where many young adults (including myself) experience true community for the first time. I anecdotally know some "late bloomer" seminarians/priests but it takes a special type of man to leave all of his possessions behind.
Yeah. Especially with how easy it is to import priests, I think the real danger we are facing as a Church is a parishioner shortage.
You're exactly right, Father! And the statistic that really matters when calculating priest ratios is the Mass attendance rate in the diocese. When that number is known, all the ratios look different, and the patterns look different too.
Here in Australia we are more in danger of running out of laity than of priests.
Interesting point about the ease of importing priests, Father. I clicked through to the report and I found it extremely interesting that the “Tier 3” dioceses (100,000-300,000 Catholics living within the diocese) had both the most vocations AND the most extern priests—with extern priests serving in 955 parishes, compared with only 717 parishes in Tier 1 dioceses (those with more than 750,000 Catholics) being staffed by extern priests and even fewer in Tier 2 (300k-750k Catholics) and Tier 4 (fewer than 100k Catholics) dioceses. It just seems that a well-staffed, amply ministered diocese thrives (if vocation numbers are a sign of thriving).
It’s complicated. In most agreement with all of the very very positive and encouragement statements in this thread, especially on the importance of adoration and availability of the sacraments…. It’s in contrast to where I live in Arlington Diocese where there is both immense good and attention to parish formation. I could help the diocese start up at least six new over-capacity parishes just for all of the people who want to come back but feel unsafe here, and I am absolutely overwhelmed with people reaching out to share their horror stories of being pushed out of their parish because they didn’t fit the mold of a compliant and politically conservative person. So as someone who loves the Latin Mass and am conservative, I’m also gay and know just how awful we can be to one another here. FWIW it’s been 12 hours since someone last reached out to me from that diocese for help.
It sounds like you are in a position to do a lot of good for a number of disenfranchised individuals. It's only anecdotal and on the opposite side of the spectrum, but I have a friend who was argued out of a bible study on her first appearance by boys who couldn't conceive of a woman going hunting.
I would hope there would be at least one sympathetic pastor in the area for you and your friends to congregate around. It doesn't justify the exclusivity you've experienced, but I would imagine there is an even greater need for "non-conformative" community than is otherwise known. A good pastor would recognize the need for this and support some sort of initiative.
Cincinnati’s ordination numbers are the best in all the Tier 2 dioceses (97% of “replacement rate”), so you’ve got that going for you there. The other thing to consider is priests don’t ONLY minister to practicing parishioners. They get sick calls, do marriage prep (and many other things I’m sure I’m overlooking) for people who don’t regularly attend Mass.
They may be ministering to people who have never been members of the Church. One of my colleagues circa 1990 approached local priests to explore the Catholic faith. My previous parish priest was a regular on the local radio station's weekly religious program. He had no direct idea of who his words were reaching. Half an hour after the news of Pope Benedict's resignation broke, he had the local BBC journalist on the phone seeking instant comment. Mercifully a parishioner had already rung to tell him the hot news, so he had been granted a few minutes to Google for an explanation. It lall took some of his limited time.
That is a really interesting observation as well. A priest’s influence and responsibility extend well beyond the laity who actually show up for Mass on a regular basis. I have to try not to think about the enormity of this task too much or I get kind of freaked out for my son’s future (provided that he completes seminary and is ordained, obviously).