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Sep 25
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ALT's avatar

I don't think there's a possible concern that could warrant a blanket ban, given that most churches don't have schools.

However, your comment spurred a thought in me, which is: adults and children in the same group on parish property tends to require things like background checks and sexual abuse prevention training for the adults. They might be avoiding the expense to the parish/diocese (rather than passing the cost to the groups, and having only the poorer ones shut down).

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Sep 25
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ALT's avatar

True, but Virtus only applies if there are children. If most of the groups are either adult-only, or are run with a limited number of adult volunteers, it would require only a few (or no) background checks and accreditation. A homeschool group might need a dozen or more adults accredited, just for one group. And neither Virtus nor background checks apply for parents of children who attend the parish school to be on school grounds.

I don't know how much background checks typically run, but I doubt they're cheap. I don't know if that's enough to cause a problem by itself, but I can see it being a factor. Although I expect most of the groups would have preferred to simply foot the bill.

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Danny's avatar

In my diocese, no parish that hosts a Catholic school also hosts a homeschool co-op. When a school opened, the co-op was booted for the reason of lack of space. It was sad, but it had to happen logistically. You are definitely thinking this through and trying to be charitable and imagine both sides, which is great! If this was what was going on here, I don't think people would have an issue with the policy.

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Sep 24
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Nicole's avatar

Most people don’t know we also aren’t supposed to be parish-shopping, Parishes have geographical boundaries and we are supposed to attend the parish that serves the boundaries in which we live. I didn’t know that before we chose our parish.

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Sep 24
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Nathaniel L's avatar

I would hope that bishops who do want this rule enforced at least also buck the trend of shuffling pastors every six years (or often fewer for administrators) to at least try to provide some long term assurance for those who would consider moving into the neighborhood of a good parish.

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ALT's avatar
Sep 25Edited

There is a custom, but not a rule, that people attend the parish that serves the boundaries where they live. And there isn't much of a custom any more. I suspect it arose because Baptism and Marriage are required to happen in your home parish, and as a practical matter he'll want some evidence that you're a practicing Catholic. However, he can give consent for Baptism and Matrimony to happen elsewhere, and can accept the word of another priest that you are in fact practicing the Faith. https://canonlawmadeeasy.com/2008/04/11/parish-registration/

I think the underlying principle is simply stability. Jumping from parish to parish every time a priest or another parishioner rubs you wrong is quite unhealthy. Moving to a parish that is spiritually healthy for you and staying there despite the inevitable frictions is perfectly reasonable.

The pastor is responsible for all the souls in his parish boundaries, Catholic, Protestant, or atheist, and that part actually is by law. But that doesn't mean the rule goes both ways. In Confession, for example, priests are generally bound to hear Confessions (within reasonable limits of time and place) from all who present themselves. However, no one is required to go to whatever priest is most readily available, or to their pastor/priest specifically.

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Sep 24
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Aaron Babbidge's avatar

Being welcoming only applies to certain people, you don't have to be welcoming to conservatives. /s

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ALT's avatar

Some animals are more welcome than others.

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filiusdextris's avatar

Then John said in reply, “Master, we saw someone casting out demons in your name and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow in our company.”

Jesus said to him, “Do not prevent him, for whoever is not against you is for you.” (Lk 9:49-50)

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RDB's avatar

How providential that this is the reading for this Sunday's Gospel (from Mark).

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Cranberry Chuck's avatar

Quick read: most Catholic homeschoolers are tradition-minded people. Cdl. McElroy is very much the opposite - specifically, anti-TLM, and he has made remarks that appear to oppose aspects of Catholic teaching (on homosexuality and abortion, for example). Whatever the pretext offered at the chancery, no doubt this policy is Cdl. McElroy's way of hurting those families - the inconsistencies make it hard to conclude otherwise.

Ironic timing of Sunday's Gospel reading? Only if there isn't a stronger word for irony.

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PFH's avatar

It cannot be true. Let us pray that the shepherd for the San Diego Archdiocese would never intend to hurt faithful families.

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Joe Witkowski's avatar

The pastor of my parish in the Diocese of Birmingham, AL - not exactly a progressive US diocese but a laudably balanced and fair one - ruled over 15 years as Cdl. McElroy ruled this week against use of parish facilities and infrastructure for home schooling colloquial. So your “coincidental timing” is a convenient opinion. Such rulings have been meted out for many years.

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Joe Witkowski's avatar

Over 15 years AGO

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Joe Witkowski's avatar

Colloqia not “colloquial”. Darn autofill. Sorry

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Rosemary's avatar

This is so much more thoughtful and helpful than what I would have wanted to say. Thank you.

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William Murphy's avatar

I know this is Southern California, but what are these guys smoking?

"....homeschooling families are required to participate in parish sacramental preparation programs, and that religious education of children “cannot be done independently of the parish."

Er....what happened to the Church teaching that parents are the primary educators of their children? The most important preparation of little children for the sacraments was done years before, when their parents took them to Mass and prayed with them.

It sounds like some parents are less than 100% keen on the regular parish preparation for the sacraments. But the bureaucrats, as ever, are convinced that the customers are always wrong. No one seems keen on investigating why some parents might want an alternative program. They might get honest answers which do not fit the Party Line.

It reminds me of the demise of the last indigenous mass market car maker in England in 2005. Some redundant Rover workers blamed their sad fate on British customers not buying their obsolete vehicles....

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Aidan T's avatar

We are not customers at our local parish. The "horizontal" aspect of communion - where we are in communion with each other - is important too, not just the "vertical" aspect when God comes to us individually. Unless the parish programme is really garbage, it is very unhealthy to disregard the parish programme as not being good enough for us.

By the way, I attended the beatification of (now Saint) John Henry Newman, and we parked on the old Rover plant. God has a plan!

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Annie's avatar

Many RE programs really are… maybe not “garbage,” but if there is an option that is clearly better, why wouldn’t a parent choose that? It is encouraging in my diocese that Catechesis of the Good Shepherd has been “approved” as sufficient for sacramental prep for first communion. I think CGS is clearly a superior option to a typical classroom setting! I am grateful that a parish provides space for the homeschool co-op at which my children get to experience it.

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Tom Gregorich's avatar

Doesnt this just further divide the parish? How are these children ever supppsed to meet and go through this process together? Im sorry but i agree completely with the previous poster and am happy about this rule change

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Nicole's avatar

How is this different than students in a diocesan school also not participating in parish-based religious Ed? Same sword cutting the opposite direction. Together

ought mean actually together. Otherwise it is skirting punitive action against particular groups.

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Mr. Karamazov's avatar

Catholic school families are the preferred group. They're - on average - everything the bishop is hoping for. They tend have lots of money - at least as a group. They go along with the Catholic mainstream (whether good or bad). They fund one of the bishop's priorities - schools. Catholic schools are like a feather in the bishop's cap so he can show something he's in charge is important in the context of his territory.

Homeschoolers are something different. They're seen as creating a parallel structure to the bishop's priorities. They tend to be more traditional. They have no problem bucking mainstream trends - Catholic or otherwise. This makes them unruly for better or worse. They also tend to have less money as a group.

So when the Catholic school parents come to the bishop and ask him if they can do catechesis and sacrament prep in the context of their Catholic school education (which makes perfect sense), the bishop is more likely to be sympathetic. When the homeschoolers come and ask the same, they're more often seen as rebels who don't want to be part of the community.

None of this says there aren't many great families in Catholic schools - there are! Nor does it mean there aren't problems in homeschool communities (believe me - there are). But it's just the way the Catholic world works right now. There are in groups and out groups in our time of "synodality"

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Andrew S's avatar

Why does the requirement that all children must go through the parish CCD program necessitate the banning of homeschooling families (presumably parishioners) from using any parish facilities to meet up?

Why would the latter make you happy?

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Teresa Santoleri's avatar

I don't think the point of CCD is for children to meet each other. The point is to come to know, love and serve God better.

The quality of CCD teachers is varied at best.

I think your average home school family will do a far superior job teaching the faith and integrating it into a child's daily life.

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Annie's avatar

Yes. I think this is part and parcel with a lot of what I see in my own diocese- the requirement stays at the lowest common denominator, and those families and parishioners who are faithful and practicing bear the brunt of the requirements and structures- e.g. mandatory baptism classes even if this is your 3rd, 4th, 5th child and the family is active and engaged at the parish, and raising their kids in the faith.

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Dan's avatar

The article made me cringe just a tad bit. I don't like it when our Church gets controlling of families. But I did want to reply to your comment on CCD being a place for children to meet eachother. Yes, that is a fundamental part of theological education. Theology is "reality" and in that sense it is also a "lived experience" ...the more Christians get to know one another and their experiences in the world, the closer we grow to a deeper conversion and understanding of theology. It needs to start at a young age.

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ALT's avatar

In my parish, the public, private, and homeschool kids meet each other after Mass and run around in the woods with sticks (or wander around and talk to each other, or take over picnic tables and eat together). I don't think they're missing out on that part. I suspect that kids that only see each other in CCD classes are, since they're in class, not socializing.

You simply can't teach all of life in an hour a week - and you're not supposed to. You're supposed to teach catechism for an hour a week and let them learn the rest of life by doing life.

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Julia W.'s avatar

My children are homeschooled and play for a long time after mass with the children they just finished worshipping with. They certainly have a community. When we are leaving Mass, we see the faith formation kiddos being dropped off by their parents to go into class while the parents don’t attend the mass before class or the one going on during their child’s class. How is that group of people their community if they aren’t worshipping with them?

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ALT's avatar

If the classes were equally good, it would not be divisive. There's nothing stopping the kids from socializing together after Mass or in other activities, and discussing the Faith at the same level - if they were actually getting it at the same level. They probably aren't. Parish catechesis has been dreadful for decades. Homeschool catechesis is typically substantially better. There's a reason priests are coming from homeschool families at a disproportionate rate.

There isn't an advantage for an adult to go through a bad or mediocre class teaching things he already knows just because there are other people around when he does it. It isn't an advantage for the other students either, because they learn by getting taught at their level, not by osmosis. We recognize this, and don't put college students in remedial English for fellowship's sake. There isn't an advantage for kids either.

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Andrew S's avatar

This is a fair point, but it strikes me that deciding "not to provide an exemption for certain groups to skip out of the CCD" is orthogonal to "banning homeschooling groups (whose members are presumably parish families) from using any parish facilities".

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Teresa Santoleri's avatar

In my experience, parishes still have over-site of students who are home schooled for religious education. They are actually held to a higher standard because their knowledge is tested.

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Julia W.'s avatar

What is crazy is that my children are not tested. There is parish over site, like we have to go to the retreats and a few classes the faith formation kiddos have to go to, but no one will TEST my children because they don’t TEST the faith formation kiddos. They agree it isn’t fair, but I honestly wish they would. I’d love to have all the kids tested before receiving, even if it is just explaining simply what the Eucharist is.

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ALT's avatar

Yeah. The whole reason for waiting until 7 to receive Holy Communion is that the Latin tradition puts an emphasis on understanding Who we receive. Taking up a desk in a classroom doesn't ensure that.

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Annie's avatar

I feel this way about baptism classes (sorry I have mentioned it before in the comments here but it is a big pet peeve of mine)- first, give us a 10 or 20 minute quiz about baptism, and certain results trigger a meeting with the deacon/priest or attendance of the class, and certain results trigger a result of “okay let’s schedule your child’s baptism.”

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William Murphy's avatar

Unfortunately religious consumerism is a fact of life. I recall the late Father Edward Holloway back in the 1970s describing how Catholics were already seeking out parishes according to the style of the priest - rather similar to Anglicans with high/low church preferences. As a working priest, he had to pay the parish bills.

The explosion in car ownership made parish picking all the easier. Don't like Fr Smith at the Sacred Heart? Drive ten minutes to St Joseph's.

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Maureen's avatar

In our parish it was the homeschooled parents and children that were far more involved in the parish than most ‘Catholic schooled’ children. In fact, very few children and parents, from the Catholic schools, participated in Mass at all. It was only homeschooling that helped our children learn to love and practise the Faith. I’m afraid to consider what may have happened had we not homeschooled.

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Gail Finke's avatar

That is, or used to be, the policy in my diocese--the idea was that all children of the parish should be prepared together. Sometimes parents thought they could do a better job than the parish, but often it was just that their children were alreadly learning the faith, so why do it twice? Both were good points, I thought.

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Stephen Nowaczewski's avatar

It seems to me that the Church - dioceses and individual parishes - ought to strive for "both and...". This article comes on the heels of another recent article re Bishop P seeking to adjust from the CHD to school funding. Christian, Catholic-based education of children has evangelistic efficacy, without question. All that said, Catholic schools don't work for everyone for many reasons - cost, availability, travel and work schedule, special needs, and other practical reasons. Home schooling is growing and vibrant and the typical status of home schoolers (less wealthy, more independent and can-do minded, and more willing to help others in the same task) was described by another commentor. At our parish, we have a home school support program that is in every way Catholic, growing, and melds completely into the rest of the religious education provided by the parish. What is necessary to accomplish this is pastoral leadership, school/DRE leadership, volunteers, and committed parents. When you have all that, and we do and it is growing, then we can have both support of Catholic schools and support of Catholic home schooling.

Further, if there is a trust/mistrust issue between diocesan reps and home schoolers, then perhaps a lot more dialogue and less policy is warranted in order to find a way to serve rather than to prevent and obstruct. It is sad if people are cemented into their biases.

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Rebecca's avatar

I really appreciate the thoughtfulness of your comment.

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Carl-Eric Tangen's avatar

This.

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Aidan T's avatar

We are one holy, catholic and apostolic Church. Catholics, including parents, should really do stuff together wherever possible, and not turn their noses up at what parishes try to do together. The irony of avoiding communion programmes with other Catholic appears to be lost on some people.

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Fr. John L's avatar

The irony of parishes offering poor catechesis and then being surprised when Catholic families want something better for the children is also lost on some people.

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Tracy Brophy's avatar

I recall learning very little in CCD, and my kiddos (at a different parish) as well. However, meeting other kids raised in the same faith was a tremendous boon in my life. Also the example of putting time aside to get to and participate in these classes taught me that faith had value in community. I did plenty extra with my kids at home, as did my parents. When Catholic families want more, they have the option of stepping up in their parish, not turning their back on it.

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Annie's avatar

Many times, the effort it takes to step up in the parish does not actually yield the results that parents are wanting. Even if all the homeschool co-op parents volunteered to be catechists, would they be met with support from the parish if they suggested incorporating different approaches to catechesis? In my case, my reticence about classroom religious ed is the fact that classroom learning is not actually how children assimilate information, especially when it comes to their spiritual formation. Parish and diocesan bureaucracy is often such that even parents’ greatest efforts will meet with resistance and often it is more fruitful to seek an alternative.

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Tracy Brophy's avatar

I really, really sympathize with your viewpoint. These things can be very frustrating. I just think not everyone realizes that we don't belong to the Church in order to always receive what we want, and we are just as responsible to give, especially in situations where Truth might be otherwise neglected. In other words, it may be that other kids might need your child's knowledge and examples because they aren't receiving it elsewhere. Just something to think about.

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Annie's avatar

Of course. Everyone is called to give in different ways. Does that always mean “teaching CCD”? Probably not. But for many, probably so!

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Tracy Brophy's avatar

No, but it may mean attending instead of homeschooling the classes.

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Annie's avatar

I think that approach lacks an understanding of how children operate. For an adult, I think that your statement may hold. But the children are not formed yet, and the medium of catechesis is the message. Foregoing authentic religious ed at home or elsewhere and instead sending my kids to a program I view as harmful (or a program which is neutral but which disrupts family life somehow)? Sorry- that is to the detriment of the child! (Of course this is all assuming that the program at the parish is average or below average. If it is good and worthwhile, then of course it could be a fine option!) I agree that integration into the parish is for the best for all families, homeschool and otherwise! I would and do prefer to do that in about a hundred ways before I would get to attending classroom RE.

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Tracy Brophy's avatar

But why would you think we see it as either/or? Both are meant to supplement each other.

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Annie's avatar

In an ideal world, I think you are right. However, 1) sometimes, a dumb or bad faith formation class or situation can actually be a detriment. Examples I have experienced: the material is presented in a childish way, transmitting the message that “church and faith things are for kids only.”; peer pressure from classmates who mostly don’t care and think this is lame, and the few children who are excited about learning are made fun of or meet the energy of the classmates by also not caring. Why send my kids out for something that may actually neutralize what we are trying to do? (and note that my kids are very young- I was totally the enthused kid in high school youth group/RE among many others who did not care, and by that point it was fine.)

2) time is a limited resource. Allotting time for something that is just nice in principle is not always the best choice!

Anyway, I do think that the comments or at least my participation therein have strayed a bit from the main takeaway of this action by the diocese, which is- why target homeschool groups with a blanket ban? Even if everyone needed to participate in religious ed, which I am obviously not a fan of, why should that preclude homeschool moms from also having a meeting on parish grounds? Anyway. It just stinks of cutting off the faithful at the knees out of vindictiveness.

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Tracy Brophy's avatar

BTW, in case it isn't obvious, I really love that we can talk about things like this, and learn from new viewpoints. Thanks for taking so much time with me, it is much appreciated.

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Aidan T's avatar

Are the parishes in San Diego offering poor catechesis? That’s quite a big leap from what it says in the article. Even if the catechesis is insipid, lame or boring I think people should do it together. It would have to be outright heretical before people should shun it.

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Annie's avatar

Really?? What have decades of “insipid, lame, boring” catechesis at parishes gotten us? Generations of Catholics who no longer practice the faith, and parishes where the classes are filled with kids who are dropped off at RE and whose parents do not attend Mass.

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Tom Gregorich's avatar

You can do both!! Supplement at home whatever "lame" aspects of ccd that you find. Its difficult to not come to the conclusion that these families just want nothing to do with their parish, and that is wrong.

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Annie's avatar

There are many other aspects of parish life in which they can (and maybe do) participate- foremost, attendance at mass on Sundays. Sacrificing my children’s education for the sake of the parish’s CCD program or the parish school’s attendance numbers is not something I am willing to do.

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Andrew S's avatar

Except for the fact that they presumably attend Mass at the parish, donate to the parish, seek the sacraments for their children at the parish, and love the parish so much that they choose to use it as a meeting point for their homeschooling group!

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ALT's avatar

Sending a child to an insipid, lame, boring catechism class that doesn't actually teach them the Faith, does an excellent job of teaching them that the Faith is insipid, lame, boring, and doesn't have any actual substance to it. To even supplement bad catechesis at church with good catechesis at home, the parents would have to be sitting in on the classes to figure out what to supplement. For each child. Which could mean more different classes than there are parents.

Also, time is one of those finite resources that don't get replenished. Children's time should not be wasted by making them sit around being told things they already know for a couple hours a week. Few adults would put up with that.

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Gail Finke's avatar

A lot depends on what the program is. When my kids were confirmed, all the kids in the parish had to go through the same process. It wasn't great, but it wasn't terrible or a huge time commitment, we were glad they did it with the group. My niece and nephew live in a different state, their kids had to go through TWO YEARS of monthly meetings and projects, all of it awful.

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Danny's avatar

Aidan T, how many kids do you have, and how many are still in the faith 4 years after leaving high school? That's the kind of attitude that will lead to a near zero number in many parishes.

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Bridget's avatar

Is this question ("how many kids do you have etc") more like a dispassionate "help me understand your point of view because at first glance it doesn't make sense to me" or is it more like "I am gatekeeping and you can only express an opinion if you have children old enough to have graduated college (or if you agree with me)"? I cannot tell without nonverbal signals such as tone of voice. The latter would (without the parenthetical exemption) mean that very few current commenters could join a discussion and it would eliminate entirely the youngest and traddiest of generations, which I think is contrary to the "laity can has opinions, cats can has cheeseburger" spirit of Vatican 2.

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LinaMGM's avatar

Bridget I don’t disagree with your points generally and typically the “he who has the most kids wins the catholic prize” game is gross to me but his comment read, to me, more in the vein of “this reads like the best parents are the ones without children” kind of meme. In other words, are you speaking from a place of any experience or are you telling people living the realities of poor ccd programs and over expensive and unorthodox catholic schools how it “should be” when you yourself don’t live the reality of catechesis in the modern American church.

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Bridget's avatar

True, it's a very difficult reality.

Division into tribes in the comments is not much use (although it is human nature, I think, even without provocation from the enemy).

I would recommend (to the audience in general) instead a letter writing campaign: not to the offending bishop, but to one's own bishop; not to complain or to persuade, but to express gratitude and filial affection. Bishops get mostly angry mail and they really appreciate a surprise note of thanks. (e.g. when I am mad at my bishop for moving a priest I liked, instead I write to thank him for the years in which this priest was with us, and in the note I mention some specific good quality of this priest.) In this case I would thank my bishop for not being the guy we are mad at, but I would phrase it in positive terms: e.g. thank you for your (small o) orthodoxy, for being someone we can rely on to lead us to Christ according to the teachings of holy mother Church, for fostering a spirit of unity in the diocese among people of different backgrounds, or whatever I can truthfully say. I would say also that I thank God for giving us this bishop and that I pray for him daily (if I do not pray for him daily then I will honestly state that I intend to start.)

If it is difficult to compose a letter then I would do it in front of the Blessed Sacrament and then it will take 5 minutes tops I think. It doesn't need to be long and can go in a greeting card. If we all did this what would happen? I don't know: it would be fun to find out.

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LinaMGM's avatar

As someone who lives in ADW I’m not sure many of those sentiments could be in my letter but you know what? Cardinal Gregory has been doing a homeschool mass for us at the basilica for a couple of years and I’m truly so grateful for it. We didnt have one this year I’m not sure why but it was very generous previously and I always meant to thank him

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Danny's avatar

Bridget, It is coming from the place of someone who has had kids in Catholic schools from PreK-college, but who was himself homeschooled and understands why parents would choose differently. It is coming from the place of someone who has little patience for people who want blanket rules and are supportive of cruel policy, while evincing little in their writings that they understand the perspectives of others. Read Fr. John L's response above, to get an understanding of that. In my experience, people who have raised kids understand how difficult it is and are much more tolerant of people who do things differently than themselves. Foremost among these are people who have successfully raised kids who kept the faith. Everyone I know in that category is horrified by this policy.

In my opinion, everyone is entitled to their opinion, and parishes should take a broad, liberal view toward supporting families taking different approaches to raising kids. However, if someone wants to be exclusionary and cruel, they had better have a darn good reason for it and show some evidence that they understand what families are going through and how difficult it is to educate kids to both be successful professionally and to keep the faith.

To LinMGM's point, the only people I've known who had this much hate towards homeschoolers also had no kids. To a person, their perspectives changed as they had kids themselves and saw the educational/life outcomes of homeschoolers they had previously condemned. Young people are usually idealistic and think their way is the only way. Age tends to make people more tolerant of those doing things differently than themselves (unless they are captured by ideology and never mix socially with people different than themselves, as is the case for many chancery staff).

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Jeanatan C's avatar

Bridget, I have to teach Gaudium et spes next week. Please know that "laity can haz opinions" is going to feature somewhere in the lesson, most likely superimposed on a picture of a cat wearing a slipper on its head. That is all.

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ALT's avatar

As Catholics, we are in communion with people in Russia and India, whom we cannot do anything with, could not speak with even if we were transported to the same place, and will never meet. Communion is not about location or uniform experiences, it's about being part of the same covenant and the same Body.

I was homeschooled through CCD, with the pastor's permission. By the time Confirmation classes were coming up, youth group was required. This is where I discovered that not only did the other teens know far less than I did, so did most of the teachers.

I do not think the Church is served well by taking away the opportunity to learn from those who could have it, through homeschooling, in the interest of a uniformly bad education. As a well-catechized adult, I can help others learn and direct them toward good resources. Were I not, I couldn't. Others do far more, and they would also not be able to, without good catechesis from outside their parishes.

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Andrea's avatar

What does CCD stand for? (I hate acronyms...)

Also in the article you tell me twice that the new rules were dated 01/09, but issued on the 18th.

On the matter at hand, I think there is too much cultural difference for me to understand what is going on. All the homeschoolers are Catholic? In San Diego the majority is Catholic?

My local church hall is let for all sort of non church related activities. As long as they are not scandalous I don't see the problem.

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Andrea's avatar

Thanks. I feel more information is needed to feel the blanks for the non locals.

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Gail Finke's avatar

CCD (Confraternity of Christian Doctrine) used to the be the name of the religious ed program for all children who weren't in Catholic school--a weekly after-school program, when possible. It is still used as a catchall phrase by many, because there are several programs now, with different names (our parish used "PSR" - Parish School of Religion). They are run by the parish, usually in parish facilities.

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Stenny's avatar

Everybody’s all for innovating and creative solutions and new ways of doing things in the church…right until the moment some dares to actually do it.

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Nathaniel L's avatar

Exactly. 'Declericalization' ... lay leadership. The Catholic homeschooling movement ought to come in for high praise from such people.

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Fr Jedidiah Tritle's avatar

To any homeschool families reading this:

Thank you for taking your vocation as primary religious educators of your children seriously!! As go faithful families, so go parishes and even dioceses. Even at its best, CCD is only there to supplement the parents, not replace them. I'm all for parents opting to take care of religious formation, especially if the parish program is wonky.

Keep doing what you're doing, even if it means finding forms of support other than the local parish. Just because your bone-headed diocesan administration is spiritually incompetent, that doesn't mean you are unwanted or unrespected by the rest of us!

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Fr. John L's avatar

^Everything he said!^

Maybe the Diocese should be asking homeschool families why they don’t send their children to Catholic schools or want to enroll them in parish faith formation programs. I guarantee the answer would be enlightening.

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William's avatar

It would be synodal too!

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Danny's avatar

If synodal involved listening to Catholics, that might be true.

However, it's just a cover for rubber stamping a leftist agenda, so families be damned. Full steam ahead with replacing homeschool groups with gay and trans support groups.

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Matthew's avatar

My wife and I homeschool our five young children. Well, technically only 3 are old enough to be homeschooled. I do not like this most recent news out of San Diego. Praise God, we have almost the polar opposite of a bishop here in our diocese. He's legitimately listening to homeschooling families and not making any hasty policy decisions.

All that being said, I do not like the spirit of your comment. Would that we could have both kinds of groups at our parishes, as our "gay and trans" brethren deserve a place to encounter God's mercy just as much as homeschooling families.

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Thomas's avatar

But Danny was specifically saying gay and trans support groups. Authentic support groups for people struggling with same sex attraction like Courage and Encourage do not call themselves gay support groups because gay automatically implies you are participating in that lifestyle or supporting it. We don't have thief support groups or adulterer support groups in parishes, though thieves and adulterers should definitely be welcome in every parish.

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Nathaniel L's avatar

Amen.

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Andrew S's avatar

This.

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Virn809's avatar

Does the Diocese forget that many religious vocations come from homeschooling families?

Of course, the Diocese of San Diego may not want properly formed, homeschooled, traditionally minded Catholic vocations...

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MauriceBelliere's avatar

I suppose this is another reason that I'll be waking up in a cold sweat at the thought of the next conclave ending with "Habemus papam...cardinalem McElroy"

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Aidan T's avatar

They would say Roberto, and it wouldn’t matter what they said next as my TV would have a shoe through it.

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scondon's avatar

This story was really interesting to me - my first reaction was “this seems extreme just to prop up the local parish school”, but the concern around consistent sacrament preparation probably is a legitimate concern for the diocese. The policy, however, is not targeted at that.

There are dioceses that rent space to all kinds of tenants, including ones that could cause scandal to the faithful. This just feels like a really big stick for a tiny problem, unless there’s a root cause that was not identified in the story; can’t wait for additional reporting!

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Gail Finke's avatar

I can't say anything about this diocese, but when my kids were young there was a huge bias against homeschoolers among the Catholic school personnel I knew. They saw homeschooling as personal insult. Many of them had worked at schools for years to fight against parents who didn't care about Catholicism and didn't want their schools to be Catholic other than in name, so they were very offended at the idea of parents possibly thinking they "weren't Catholic enough." There are plenty of good reasons to homeschool that have nothing to do with the Catholic instruction in local schools, but school employees don't tend to know (or care to know) what they are.

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Sep 25
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Gail Finke's avatar

Very tough. It was a big surprise to me to talk to a lot of faculty, and even priests, about long years of experience with parents who complained about the schools actually teaching the faith and expecting kids to go to Mass, etc. I have no doubt that this was the case, and that they really didn't know what to do about parents who DID want those things and who took a look at their schools and declined. But taking it as a personal insult was not the right response, and writing off those families (instead of trying to work with them) was an even worse one.

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Nicole's avatar

Many homeschool families would welcome this opportunity, though some wouldn’t. In some states (mine), homeschooled students are not allowed to play sports for their local public high schools. This is due to lawmakers and regulators in my state choosing, for whatever reason, not to provide the opportunity even though other states do so successfully,

And because the high schools don’t allow it, the elementary schools don’t. My diocese runs a CYO sports program at the diocesan level but limits participation mostly to diocesan elementary schools. I say mostly not because they welcome Catholic homeschool or public school students. They do not. “Mostly” because there is a Protestant grade school as a full participant in the league while many Catholic students are barred. I don’t get it. I’ve been told it will change but have not been told when. I’ve been asking for several years. I don’t fault my bishop. He has enough on his plate. I wish it would change.

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Thomas's avatar

Interesting that the diocese with an ultraliberal, pro-homosexual bishop would do this. There is a reason more parents are homeschooling or having their children attend independent (meaning non-parochial) Catholic schools. It is because most parochial Catholic schools are not much better than public schools these days in regards to morals, with kids having to deal with trans classmates (even in kindergarten), homosexual teachers, and classes where all sorts of falsehoods are promoted and sexual material is pushed on kids in classes where they are supposedly being taught how to avoid being sexually abused. My kids attended a parochial school until the principal, a nun, was forced out because some parents, after f-bombing the nun in front of a group of kids (including my 8 year old daughter), persuaded the pastor to remove her because she dared have the kids in school learn about the existence of the devil. The bishop fully supported this firing as well. We moved to an independent Catholic school, but would have homeschooled if we had to send our kids to any parochial school in our diocese or if we could not afford these types of schools, which are more expensive because they no financial support from the Church. And CCD at most parishes is wishy washy or heretical drivel that at best is a waste of time for any kid who has more than a minimal knowledge of their faith, while most Catholic homeschooling kids know more about their faith than their parochial CCD teachers do. In my diocese and adjacent archdiocese, there are only a handful of parochial religious education programs you can trust, and those are bulging with kids from inside and outside those parishes which are distinguished by excellent pastors who are fully invested in what the kids are taught in their parish. Catholic parents are obligated by the Church to educate their children in the Faith. If the parishes teach kids heresy, parents have to form their own religious education groups to prevent their kids from losing the Faith and going to hell because of liberal Catholic parishes.

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GB's avatar

If you homeschool, why do you need a parish facility? Also, joining the parish catechetical program doesn’t seem unreasonable either, you can always supplement it at home. Separate groups is not a good idea. In our diocese several years ago, unbeknownst to me and other parents, there was a homeschool association that somehow wrangled the bishop to confirm all their kids, from about age 7 to highschool, while those of us who had kids in the parochial system had to wait until they were juniors in highschool, which is ridiculous. What’s up with that double standard?

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Annie's avatar

It sounds like this is targeted at organized homeschool cooperatives or hybrid school options, which are a way that homeschool families get together to share the load of offering something more involved, like advanced science/math/literature, theology/catechism, and what have you. It is certainly unreasonable in most circumstances to require families to attend something mandatory on top of what they are already doing, in my experience, especially of that mandatory thing (religious ed, in this case) is seen as unhelpful or at the very least banal and worse than other available options. Just my two cents from my experience

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Mr. Karamazov's avatar

The first question could only be asked by someone who doesn't understand homeschooling. Homeschooling as a name is something of a misnomer. To homeschool means more about what you don't do (send your kids to public or traditional private/Catholic school) rather than what you do. Homeschoolers don't sit at home all day. They are involved with many activities and come together in community. They do coops, online classes, in person classes, etc. An ideal place to come together in community is the local parish as the primary educators (parents) join together with their primary spiritual support (the parish).

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Thomas's avatar

Don't blame the homeschoolers for having a lazy bishop who cannot confirm kids more often. Providing Sacraments to his flock is much more important to a bishop than all his other activities, including participating in pointless USCCB committees which waste time and money producing documents that no one reads while they neglect confirming children who they are responsible before God for.

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Danny's avatar

GB, Do you think that it is best if homeschool kids stay at home 100% of the time and are never allowed to attend classes with other homeschoolers? You may need to educate yourself on what best practices are among homeschool families for optimum results.

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Nicole's avatar

That seems to me not to be a problem the homeschoolers created—they didn’t. They just asked for and were granted their right under cannon law as agreed to by the competent authority vested in the person of their bishop. It does seem to me to be an opportunity to discuss sacrament prep with a given bishop and perhaps build a very good case for restored order of the sacraments because I believe you are correct: there isn’t a good reason parochial school students should have to wait and there is instead, if we believe the sacrament to do what we say it does, every good reason to confer it at an earlier age than is customary these days.

In my casual observation, preparation for confirmation seems vulnerable to slip into placing reception of the sacrament at the terminus of a parish’s youth program, either in or outside of a catholic school classroom, lending the sacrament almost the air of being a prize of completion or cultural right of passage.

Instead, we should consider that it is possible and good to have vibrant youth and teen programs not tied to the reception of a sacrament at the end then so long after that. Protestants seem to do very well with such a model.

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GB's avatar

Thank you all for the insights.

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ALT's avatar

Canon law actually says Confirmation should occur at 7. The reason given for delaying it for nearly a decade is that it is assumed that withholding a Sacrament is the only way to get kids to show up for catechism classes at all. If the homeschool association could satisfy the bishop that the kids would in fact get a religious education throughout their minority, he would have no reason to withhold the Sacrament, and ought to give it by law.

Separate groups like the lay Dominicans, lay Franciscans, men's group, women's group? I've heard of parishes with adult catechesis where people separate according to which class they want or which teacher they like. Separate groups are a staple in most parishes, and they don't cause problems. Lack of charity does.

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Nicole's avatar

I have a friend who rightly insisted her borderline high school daughter be confirmed. Her priest was hesitant to support the request because he feared that conferring the sacrament would suddenly mean the child—a non-driving minor still under the direct and constant authority of her active, faithful parents—would suddenly cease to come to Mass. This mindset of using a sacrament as a carrot or stick, while arising from a place of concern for souls and a sincere desire to keep them coming to Mass, is ultimately a detriment. It breaks cannon law, withholds grace, and treats the sacraments as rites of passage not encounters with the Living God.

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ALT's avatar

Yes. All of that. Once I started thinking about it, I was appalled by the fact that we deliberately send children to public schools without the Sacramental grace of Confirmation. From a Church militant standpoint, that's like sending civilians to the front lines with sticks. Sacramental graces don't guarantee salvation or faithfulness, but they certainly aren't mere feathers in the cap either. They provide real aid.

If the parents aren't faithful, I can see witholding it, for the same reason that Baptism can be withheld if the parents aren't faithful or willing to do the work to raise the kid Catholic. But a blanket delay seems an awful lot like refusing to distribute Holy Communion to the laity for a decade because some (possibly many) receive sacrilegiously. How many adults would be on board with that?

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Nicole's avatar

Excellent analogy. Maybe the dismal state of the culture and the recognition that probably upward of 75 percent of Catholic children are in highly secular public schools will cause the USCCB to advocate the restored order.

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ALT's avatar

I wrote that analogy thinking that it's weak point was that Holy Communion is received weekly, while Confirmation is received once.

Ten minutes later, I repent. The graces from Sacraments like Baptism, Matrimony, Holy Orders, and Confirmation are not one-time things, they are constant things. It might actually be worse than withholding Holy Communion for 10 years, since the graces are constant rather than weekly or daily.

We can certainly pray that the USCCB (or even individual bishops) return to the traditional age.

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Mary Wert's avatar

Because the influence of Catholics who don't support Catholic teaching (parents, kids, and teachers) is foisting added detriment to our children's souls.

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Claire's avatar

The Congregation for Divine Worship has repeatedly affirmed that parents are the primary educators of their children when it comes to sacramental preparation. I teach parish religious ed, I think it’s wonderful, but I don’t think bishops should get to pick and choose which laws they follow.

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Matthew's avatar

I read the dioceses pronouncement as saying more that from the PARISH's perspective Faith Formation / CCD / Religious Ed classes are ITS primary means of fulfilling the call to teach the faithful, not that the parish wants to supplant the parents' prior (and greater) authority. Right or wrong, I don't see them trying to undermine the "parents as primary educators" paradigm, unless it's way more subversive because they want to get all the kiddos into a classroom and purposely teach them heterodox materials. I can't see almost any diocese being organized enough to be that subversive. :-)

Still, I do see this as an overly-aggressive move against the increasing phenomenon of homeschooling families. (Signed, husband of a wife who homeschools 3 of our 5 small children)

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Claire's avatar

I’m referring specifically to the 2020 rule mentioned further down in the article, constraining whether parents can choose to do sacramental preparation themselves. There’s no requirement, as far as I know, to provide physical facilities for homeschooling, but while the pastor & bishop have the duty to ensure children are properly disposed, the CDW has previously said this does duty not include requiring a specific age or catechetical curriculum when it comes to confirmation, because that infringes on the rights of the children and the parents as the primary educators.

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Jeanatan C's avatar

The issue of parish CCD/faith formation ranging from wishy-washy to outright heretical is a serious one with lifelong (at least) consequences, and a major reason why I can understand homeschool groups embarking on some kind of parallel catechesis. My parents' answer to this very real concern was to sign up to teach the classes my siblings and I took each year. The parish was completely starved for available teachers, so they were quite happy to let my parents work their way up the grades until they were consistently teaching Confirmation/RCIA [sic] classes.

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Joe Witkowski's avatar

Yes - not seeing the willingness of many parents who are dissatisfied with parish and diocesan programs volunteering to participate and make them better. The common good is once again taking a back seat to me, myself, and I/my family. Missionary discipleship is not a one-on-one sport but it is a messy contact sport.

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LinaMGM's avatar

This is laughably uncharitable and Inaccurate. Like I actually chuckled!

You don’t think folks who are dissatisfied are the ones volunteering? Every single. homeschool. family I know is involved in their parish in some way - leading atrium (heavily intensive training to be a catechist in this Montessori model. Can’t just show up and teach but have to commit to year of classes to be trained), Leading and volunteering in VBS and little church summer camps, CYO sports, youth group, AHG and Trail Life, family nights and parish carnivals.

They literally ARE the ones doing it AND homeschooling multiple kids AND typically trying to make it on one or less than two full incomes.

We are out here missionary-ing our tails off but somehow none of that is valid or legitimate bc our children aren’t in a classroom 1.5 hours a week learning from a textbook about the faith (maybe. Hopefully if you have a decent program!) when they already DO catechism class in their own home every other day of the week as part of their school.

If you think the people being discussed in these homeschool groups only care about me myself and their own family, sir, I invite you to speak to some in person. Please. We are out here trying our HARDEST to live and work and pray and raise our children as faithful to the Church as we know how and you’d see that if you met some of these “unwilling to volunteer” parents.

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Joe Witkowski's avatar

Here’s what I don’t track - your answer is predicated with the initial condition : “we are dissatisfied, hence we home-school”. That was never an option for my family in the 12+ years I taught in the classroom in the parish. I tried to make what may have been presented uninterestingly as interesting and engaging. And it took a lot of time & preparation. I now teach/ catechize adults in the parish in the classroom. So I guess I missed the incipient tidal wave of home schooling and never understood why addressing the root cause of that has never been addressed. With adults it’s obviously much simpler - if you don’t show, we don’t provide distance learning to focus on community.

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LinaMGM's avatar

its absolutely not predicated on the initial condition that we are homeschooling because we are dissatisfied.

its predicated on a. the parents are the primary educators of their own children as defined *by the Church herself* and it is up to THEM to determine the means best suited to form their children. many parents are happy to utilize offerings of CCD programs but that doesn't *meet the needs* of others AND OR many parents are happy to *do. it. them. selves.*

and b. the only way to build community, parish unity and the Christian faithful is NOT the desks in a classroom once a week coursework from a text.

I missed the part of Acts of the Apostles where everyone attended a once a week desk course with textbooks. Good for you for making interesting and engaging presentations, as well as prepping for class. Guess what? Parents are doing that too! For their own kids! Its great to have such services offered, but some of us already already DOING the service.

The initial conditions of homeschooling families are not at all what you describe. The fact that dissatisfaction with what is offering in many parish RE programs comes into play as additional factors but is was never stated as initial starting point by the people doing it.

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Joe Witkowski's avatar

Regarding your (a), I handed on day one/session one every parent a letter making it abundantly clear that they were their child’s primary educator in the faith. So no need to rehash that.

My daughter is 31 now, but when I taught - and the pastor made the rules - homeschooling was the narrow exception rather than an appreciable fraction of kids. And if kids weren’t catechized - in your terms, in a desk with a textbook - they did not receive the sacraments in the parish.

Calling me “uncharitable” is a bit much and a bit defensive. Nevertheless I hope your parish and you in some way guide your children - infused with divine life in baptism - along their participatory and maturing journey to the fullness of divine life. Amen.

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Annie's avatar

This is all a total non-sequitur to your original claim that the concerned parents do not volunteer (?)

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Joe Witkowski's avatar

Please….. my original concern - how is the root cause of deficient religious Ed getting fixed? As church we all own it. Spare me your non-sequitur garbage. I try to solve problems, not propagate workarounds.

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Annie's avatar

Ha! Well, in my experience, one avenue for a solution is exactly what the now-banned homeschool groups are trying to do- work within their constraints to provide catechesis for those in their charge. (Their constraints= let’s do it during the school day, let’s do it in the context of this homeschool community with the parish, etc). And that solution is getting shut down! So telling folks “no, not THAT way!” Is not necessarily constructive either. It is probably the case that it will take multiple approaches to fix a problem that is decades in the making.

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Mr. Karamazov's avatar

There are a lot of people who can only see a problem through the lens of an existing structure or institution. I think a lot of homeschool parents see things fundamentally different. They look at the existing structures and say "I could spend all my time trying to fix something with a very limited prospect of success or I could just get on with the business of doing what must be done - educating and transmitting the faith to my children". For those who can only see the problem in institutional terms, there's little you can say to convince them. That's why parallel structures or practices exist in the first place. Some of these parallel practices will succeed. Some won't. A healthy Church would be able to incorporate all this. But we don't live in a healthy Church unfortunately.

BTW - when i say "existing structure or institution" i don't mean the divinely ordained structure of the Church. I mean the structures and practices of how we get on with our daily lives as families, parishes and dioceses. There's nothing divinely ordained about the way we've done education and catechesis over the last 100 years.

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ALT's avatar

The first responsibility of a parent is to their children, not to their parish. That is why they can move and leave the parish behind, but they cannot move and leave their children behind. For a mother or father, the family is literally the primary responsibility. It isn't selfishness to put it first - it's an obligation. The *pastor* has the parish as his primary obligation. He also has the catechesis as his responsibility.

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JD Flynn's avatar

I don't think there needs to be a "root cause" of homeschooling, as it is the default catechetical mode of a family. School/religious education are the deviation from the anthropological and historical norm, not home education.

(my kids go to school)

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LinaMGM's avatar

Exactly this!

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Nicole's avatar

I was talking to a friend about this very point today. So many times, discussions about education models are influenced by the erroneous idea that majority-day classroom models are the norm, when in the course of history at large, in the course of the history of the Church, and in the history of the United States, majority-day classroom setting education is very new.

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ALT's avatar

How did they manage to teach all of the classes? At least in my parish, all the classes occur at the same time, so that parents don't wind up spending the whole day there, wrangling children who aren't currently in class. As soon as you get past two kids, that solution might not work - even if you are good at classroom-style teaching.

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Jeanatan C's avatar

My father taught my class and my mother taught my sister's class, which were at the same time. My younger brother was too small for CCD so he just chilled in my sister's class. After the first round of Sunday School, my parents would co-teach the Confirmation class, which was held an hour after everything else, and all three of us littlings would sit in the back and listen. By the time I got to my parents' Confirmation class myself, my brother was old enough to start taking in the material, so they switched back to the same pattern but for the younger two.

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ALT's avatar

Oh, ok. Staggered classes.

I think I would be approximately nine-tenths dead after two rounds of teaching classes.

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Jeanatan C's avatar

I think my mom found it a welcome break from homeschooling us during the rest of the week!

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ALT's avatar

LOL! I can see that. I've tried to cheer up some mothers who were scared of homeschooling because they were sure they'd murder their children, by telling them that kids can tell how close they are to being murdered, and they ensure that they don't cross that line. They will either get right up against it in 3 hours/day, or they'll get right up against it in 24 hours/day, so your overall frustration levels won't change a bit!

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Nicole's avatar

On point advice.

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