We are one holy, catholic and apostolic Church. Catholics, including parents, should really do stuff together wherever possible, and not turn their noses up at what parishes try to do together. The irony of avoiding communion programmes with other Catholic appears to be lost on some people.
We are one holy, catholic and apostolic Church. Catholics, including parents, should really do stuff together wherever possible, and not turn their noses up at what parishes try to do together. The irony of avoiding communion programmes with other Catholic appears to be lost on some people.
The irony of parishes offering poor catechesis and then being surprised when Catholic families want something better for the children is also lost on some people.
I recall learning very little in CCD, and my kiddos (at a different parish) as well. However, meeting other kids raised in the same faith was a tremendous boon in my life. Also the example of putting time aside to get to and participate in these classes taught me that faith had value in community. I did plenty extra with my kids at home, as did my parents. When Catholic families want more, they have the option of stepping up in their parish, not turning their back on it.
Many times, the effort it takes to step up in the parish does not actually yield the results that parents are wanting. Even if all the homeschool co-op parents volunteered to be catechists, would they be met with support from the parish if they suggested incorporating different approaches to catechesis? In my case, my reticence about classroom religious ed is the fact that classroom learning is not actually how children assimilate information, especially when it comes to their spiritual formation. Parish and diocesan bureaucracy is often such that even parentsтАЩ greatest efforts will meet with resistance and often it is more fruitful to seek an alternative.
I really, really sympathize with your viewpoint. These things can be very frustrating. I just think not everyone realizes that we don't belong to the Church in order to always receive what we want, and we are just as responsible to give, especially in situations where Truth might be otherwise neglected. In other words, it may be that other kids might need your child's knowledge and examples because they aren't receiving it elsewhere. Just something to think about.
I think that approach lacks an understanding of how children operate. For an adult, I think that your statement may hold. But the children are not formed yet, and the medium of catechesis is the message. Foregoing authentic religious ed at home or elsewhere and instead sending my kids to a program I view as harmful (or a program which is neutral but which disrupts family life somehow)? Sorry- that is to the detriment of the child! (Of course this is all assuming that the program at the parish is average or below average. If it is good and worthwhile, then of course it could be a fine option!) I agree that integration into the parish is for the best for all families, homeschool and otherwise! I would and do prefer to do that in about a hundred ways before I would get to attending classroom RE.
In an ideal world, I think you are right. However, 1) sometimes, a dumb or bad faith formation class or situation can actually be a detriment. Examples I have experienced: the material is presented in a childish way, transmitting the message that тАЬchurch and faith things are for kids only.тАЭ; peer pressure from classmates who mostly donтАЩt care and think this is lame, and the few children who are excited about learning are made fun of or meet the energy of the classmates by also not caring. Why send my kids out for something that may actually neutralize what we are trying to do? (and note that my kids are very young- I was totally the enthused kid in high school youth group/RE among many others who did not care, and by that point it was fine.)
2) time is a limited resource. Allotting time for something that is just nice in principle is not always the best choice!
Anyway, I do think that the comments or at least my participation therein have strayed a bit from the main takeaway of this action by the diocese, which is- why target homeschool groups with a blanket ban? Even if everyone needed to participate in religious ed, which I am obviously not a fan of, why should that preclude homeschool moms from also having a meeting on parish grounds? Anyway. It just stinks of cutting off the faithful at the knees out of vindictiveness.
BTW, in case it isn't obvious, I really love that we can talk about things like this, and learn from new viewpoints. Thanks for taking so much time with me, it is much appreciated.
Are the parishes in San Diego offering poor catechesis? ThatтАЩs quite a big leap from what it says in the article. Even if the catechesis is insipid, lame or boring I think people should do it together. It would have to be outright heretical before people should shun it.
Really?? What have decades of тАЬinsipid, lame, boringтАЭ catechesis at parishes gotten us? Generations of Catholics who no longer practice the faith, and parishes where the classes are filled with kids who are dropped off at RE and whose parents do not attend Mass.
You can do both!! Supplement at home whatever "lame" aspects of ccd that you find. Its difficult to not come to the conclusion that these families just want nothing to do with their parish, and that is wrong.
There are many other aspects of parish life in which they can (and maybe do) participate- foremost, attendance at mass on Sundays. Sacrificing my childrenтАЩs education for the sake of the parishтАЩs CCD program or the parish schoolтАЩs attendance numbers is not something I am willing to do.
Except for the fact that they presumably attend Mass at the parish, donate to the parish, seek the sacraments for their children at the parish, and love the parish so much that they choose to use it as a meeting point for their homeschooling group!
Sending a child to an insipid, lame, boring catechism class that doesn't actually teach them the Faith, does an excellent job of teaching them that the Faith is insipid, lame, boring, and doesn't have any actual substance to it. To even supplement bad catechesis at church with good catechesis at home, the parents would have to be sitting in on the classes to figure out what to supplement. For each child. Which could mean more different classes than there are parents.
Also, time is one of those finite resources that don't get replenished. Children's time should not be wasted by making them sit around being told things they already know for a couple hours a week. Few adults would put up with that.
A lot depends on what the program is. When my kids were confirmed, all the kids in the parish had to go through the same process. It wasn't great, but it wasn't terrible or a huge time commitment, we were glad they did it with the group. My niece and nephew live in a different state, their kids had to go through TWO YEARS of monthly meetings and projects, all of it awful.
Aidan T, how many kids do you have, and how many are still in the faith 4 years after leaving high school? That's the kind of attitude that will lead to a near zero number in many parishes.
Is this question ("how many kids do you have etc") more like a dispassionate "help me understand your point of view because at first glance it doesn't make sense to me" or is it more like "I am gatekeeping and you can only express an opinion if you have children old enough to have graduated college (or if you agree with me)"? I cannot tell without nonverbal signals such as tone of voice. The latter would (without the parenthetical exemption) mean that very few current commenters could join a discussion and it would eliminate entirely the youngest and traddiest of generations, which I think is contrary to the "laity can has opinions, cats can has cheeseburger" spirit of Vatican 2.
Bridget I donтАЩt disagree with your points generally and typically the тАЬhe who has the most kids wins the catholic prizeтАЭ game is gross to me but his comment read, to me, more in the vein of тАЬthis reads like the best parents are the ones without childrenтАЭ kind of meme. In other words, are you speaking from a place of any experience or are you telling people living the realities of poor ccd programs and over expensive and unorthodox catholic schools how it тАЬshould beтАЭ when you yourself donтАЩt live the reality of catechesis in the modern American church.
Division into tribes in the comments is not much use (although it is human nature, I think, even without provocation from the enemy).
I would recommend (to the audience in general) instead a letter writing campaign: not to the offending bishop, but to one's own bishop; not to complain or to persuade, but to express gratitude and filial affection. Bishops get mostly angry mail and they really appreciate a surprise note of thanks. (e.g. when I am mad at my bishop for moving a priest I liked, instead I write to thank him for the years in which this priest was with us, and in the note I mention some specific good quality of this priest.) In this case I would thank my bishop for not being the guy we are mad at, but I would phrase it in positive terms: e.g. thank you for your (small o) orthodoxy, for being someone we can rely on to lead us to Christ according to the teachings of holy mother Church, for fostering a spirit of unity in the diocese among people of different backgrounds, or whatever I can truthfully say. I would say also that I thank God for giving us this bishop and that I pray for him daily (if I do not pray for him daily then I will honestly state that I intend to start.)
If it is difficult to compose a letter then I would do it in front of the Blessed Sacrament and then it will take 5 minutes tops I think. It doesn't need to be long and can go in a greeting card. If we all did this what would happen? I don't know: it would be fun to find out.
As someone who lives in ADW IтАЩm not sure many of those sentiments could be in my letter but you know what? Cardinal Gregory has been doing a homeschool mass for us at the basilica for a couple of years and IтАЩm truly so grateful for it. We didnt have one this year IтАЩm not sure why but it was very generous previously and I always meant to thank him
Bridget, It is coming from the place of someone who has had kids in Catholic schools from PreK-college, but who was himself homeschooled and understands why parents would choose differently. It is coming from the place of someone who has little patience for people who want blanket rules and are supportive of cruel policy, while evincing little in their writings that they understand the perspectives of others. Read Fr. John L's response above, to get an understanding of that. In my experience, people who have raised kids understand how difficult it is and are much more tolerant of people who do things differently than themselves. Foremost among these are people who have successfully raised kids who kept the faith. Everyone I know in that category is horrified by this policy.
In my opinion, everyone is entitled to their opinion, and parishes should take a broad, liberal view toward supporting families taking different approaches to raising kids. However, if someone wants to be exclusionary and cruel, they had better have a darn good reason for it and show some evidence that they understand what families are going through and how difficult it is to educate kids to both be successful professionally and to keep the faith.
To LinMGM's point, the only people I've known who had this much hate towards homeschoolers also had no kids. To a person, their perspectives changed as they had kids themselves and saw the educational/life outcomes of homeschoolers they had previously condemned. Young people are usually idealistic and think their way is the only way. Age tends to make people more tolerant of those doing things differently than themselves (unless they are captured by ideology and never mix socially with people different than themselves, as is the case for many chancery staff).
Bridget, I have to teach Gaudium et spes next week. Please know that "laity can haz opinions" is going to feature somewhere in the lesson, most likely superimposed on a picture of a cat wearing a slipper on its head. That is all.
As Catholics, we are in communion with people in Russia and India, whom we cannot do anything with, could not speak with even if we were transported to the same place, and will never meet. Communion is not about location or uniform experiences, it's about being part of the same covenant and the same Body.
I was homeschooled through CCD, with the pastor's permission. By the time Confirmation classes were coming up, youth group was required. This is where I discovered that not only did the other teens know far less than I did, so did most of the teachers.
I do not think the Church is served well by taking away the opportunity to learn from those who could have it, through homeschooling, in the interest of a uniformly bad education. As a well-catechized adult, I can help others learn and direct them toward good resources. Were I not, I couldn't. Others do far more, and they would also not be able to, without good catechesis from outside their parishes.
We are one holy, catholic and apostolic Church. Catholics, including parents, should really do stuff together wherever possible, and not turn their noses up at what parishes try to do together. The irony of avoiding communion programmes with other Catholic appears to be lost on some people.
The irony of parishes offering poor catechesis and then being surprised when Catholic families want something better for the children is also lost on some people.
I recall learning very little in CCD, and my kiddos (at a different parish) as well. However, meeting other kids raised in the same faith was a tremendous boon in my life. Also the example of putting time aside to get to and participate in these classes taught me that faith had value in community. I did plenty extra with my kids at home, as did my parents. When Catholic families want more, they have the option of stepping up in their parish, not turning their back on it.
Many times, the effort it takes to step up in the parish does not actually yield the results that parents are wanting. Even if all the homeschool co-op parents volunteered to be catechists, would they be met with support from the parish if they suggested incorporating different approaches to catechesis? In my case, my reticence about classroom religious ed is the fact that classroom learning is not actually how children assimilate information, especially when it comes to their spiritual formation. Parish and diocesan bureaucracy is often such that even parentsтАЩ greatest efforts will meet with resistance and often it is more fruitful to seek an alternative.
I really, really sympathize with your viewpoint. These things can be very frustrating. I just think not everyone realizes that we don't belong to the Church in order to always receive what we want, and we are just as responsible to give, especially in situations where Truth might be otherwise neglected. In other words, it may be that other kids might need your child's knowledge and examples because they aren't receiving it elsewhere. Just something to think about.
Of course. Everyone is called to give in different ways. Does that always mean тАЬteaching CCDтАЭ? Probably not. But for many, probably so!
No, but it may mean attending instead of homeschooling the classes.
I think that approach lacks an understanding of how children operate. For an adult, I think that your statement may hold. But the children are not formed yet, and the medium of catechesis is the message. Foregoing authentic religious ed at home or elsewhere and instead sending my kids to a program I view as harmful (or a program which is neutral but which disrupts family life somehow)? Sorry- that is to the detriment of the child! (Of course this is all assuming that the program at the parish is average or below average. If it is good and worthwhile, then of course it could be a fine option!) I agree that integration into the parish is for the best for all families, homeschool and otherwise! I would and do prefer to do that in about a hundred ways before I would get to attending classroom RE.
But why would you think we see it as either/or? Both are meant to supplement each other.
In an ideal world, I think you are right. However, 1) sometimes, a dumb or bad faith formation class or situation can actually be a detriment. Examples I have experienced: the material is presented in a childish way, transmitting the message that тАЬchurch and faith things are for kids only.тАЭ; peer pressure from classmates who mostly donтАЩt care and think this is lame, and the few children who are excited about learning are made fun of or meet the energy of the classmates by also not caring. Why send my kids out for something that may actually neutralize what we are trying to do? (and note that my kids are very young- I was totally the enthused kid in high school youth group/RE among many others who did not care, and by that point it was fine.)
2) time is a limited resource. Allotting time for something that is just nice in principle is not always the best choice!
Anyway, I do think that the comments or at least my participation therein have strayed a bit from the main takeaway of this action by the diocese, which is- why target homeschool groups with a blanket ban? Even if everyone needed to participate in religious ed, which I am obviously not a fan of, why should that preclude homeschool moms from also having a meeting on parish grounds? Anyway. It just stinks of cutting off the faithful at the knees out of vindictiveness.
BTW, in case it isn't obvious, I really love that we can talk about things like this, and learn from new viewpoints. Thanks for taking so much time with me, it is much appreciated.
Are the parishes in San Diego offering poor catechesis? ThatтАЩs quite a big leap from what it says in the article. Even if the catechesis is insipid, lame or boring I think people should do it together. It would have to be outright heretical before people should shun it.
Really?? What have decades of тАЬinsipid, lame, boringтАЭ catechesis at parishes gotten us? Generations of Catholics who no longer practice the faith, and parishes where the classes are filled with kids who are dropped off at RE and whose parents do not attend Mass.
You can do both!! Supplement at home whatever "lame" aspects of ccd that you find. Its difficult to not come to the conclusion that these families just want nothing to do with their parish, and that is wrong.
There are many other aspects of parish life in which they can (and maybe do) participate- foremost, attendance at mass on Sundays. Sacrificing my childrenтАЩs education for the sake of the parishтАЩs CCD program or the parish schoolтАЩs attendance numbers is not something I am willing to do.
Except for the fact that they presumably attend Mass at the parish, donate to the parish, seek the sacraments for their children at the parish, and love the parish so much that they choose to use it as a meeting point for their homeschooling group!
Sending a child to an insipid, lame, boring catechism class that doesn't actually teach them the Faith, does an excellent job of teaching them that the Faith is insipid, lame, boring, and doesn't have any actual substance to it. To even supplement bad catechesis at church with good catechesis at home, the parents would have to be sitting in on the classes to figure out what to supplement. For each child. Which could mean more different classes than there are parents.
Also, time is one of those finite resources that don't get replenished. Children's time should not be wasted by making them sit around being told things they already know for a couple hours a week. Few adults would put up with that.
A lot depends on what the program is. When my kids were confirmed, all the kids in the parish had to go through the same process. It wasn't great, but it wasn't terrible or a huge time commitment, we were glad they did it with the group. My niece and nephew live in a different state, their kids had to go through TWO YEARS of monthly meetings and projects, all of it awful.
Aidan T, how many kids do you have, and how many are still in the faith 4 years after leaving high school? That's the kind of attitude that will lead to a near zero number in many parishes.
Is this question ("how many kids do you have etc") more like a dispassionate "help me understand your point of view because at first glance it doesn't make sense to me" or is it more like "I am gatekeeping and you can only express an opinion if you have children old enough to have graduated college (or if you agree with me)"? I cannot tell without nonverbal signals such as tone of voice. The latter would (without the parenthetical exemption) mean that very few current commenters could join a discussion and it would eliminate entirely the youngest and traddiest of generations, which I think is contrary to the "laity can has opinions, cats can has cheeseburger" spirit of Vatican 2.
Bridget I donтАЩt disagree with your points generally and typically the тАЬhe who has the most kids wins the catholic prizeтАЭ game is gross to me but his comment read, to me, more in the vein of тАЬthis reads like the best parents are the ones without childrenтАЭ kind of meme. In other words, are you speaking from a place of any experience or are you telling people living the realities of poor ccd programs and over expensive and unorthodox catholic schools how it тАЬshould beтАЭ when you yourself donтАЩt live the reality of catechesis in the modern American church.
True, it's a very difficult reality.
Division into tribes in the comments is not much use (although it is human nature, I think, even without provocation from the enemy).
I would recommend (to the audience in general) instead a letter writing campaign: not to the offending bishop, but to one's own bishop; not to complain or to persuade, but to express gratitude and filial affection. Bishops get mostly angry mail and they really appreciate a surprise note of thanks. (e.g. when I am mad at my bishop for moving a priest I liked, instead I write to thank him for the years in which this priest was with us, and in the note I mention some specific good quality of this priest.) In this case I would thank my bishop for not being the guy we are mad at, but I would phrase it in positive terms: e.g. thank you for your (small o) orthodoxy, for being someone we can rely on to lead us to Christ according to the teachings of holy mother Church, for fostering a spirit of unity in the diocese among people of different backgrounds, or whatever I can truthfully say. I would say also that I thank God for giving us this bishop and that I pray for him daily (if I do not pray for him daily then I will honestly state that I intend to start.)
If it is difficult to compose a letter then I would do it in front of the Blessed Sacrament and then it will take 5 minutes tops I think. It doesn't need to be long and can go in a greeting card. If we all did this what would happen? I don't know: it would be fun to find out.
As someone who lives in ADW IтАЩm not sure many of those sentiments could be in my letter but you know what? Cardinal Gregory has been doing a homeschool mass for us at the basilica for a couple of years and IтАЩm truly so grateful for it. We didnt have one this year IтАЩm not sure why but it was very generous previously and I always meant to thank him
Bridget, It is coming from the place of someone who has had kids in Catholic schools from PreK-college, but who was himself homeschooled and understands why parents would choose differently. It is coming from the place of someone who has little patience for people who want blanket rules and are supportive of cruel policy, while evincing little in their writings that they understand the perspectives of others. Read Fr. John L's response above, to get an understanding of that. In my experience, people who have raised kids understand how difficult it is and are much more tolerant of people who do things differently than themselves. Foremost among these are people who have successfully raised kids who kept the faith. Everyone I know in that category is horrified by this policy.
In my opinion, everyone is entitled to their opinion, and parishes should take a broad, liberal view toward supporting families taking different approaches to raising kids. However, if someone wants to be exclusionary and cruel, they had better have a darn good reason for it and show some evidence that they understand what families are going through and how difficult it is to educate kids to both be successful professionally and to keep the faith.
To LinMGM's point, the only people I've known who had this much hate towards homeschoolers also had no kids. To a person, their perspectives changed as they had kids themselves and saw the educational/life outcomes of homeschoolers they had previously condemned. Young people are usually idealistic and think their way is the only way. Age tends to make people more tolerant of those doing things differently than themselves (unless they are captured by ideology and never mix socially with people different than themselves, as is the case for many chancery staff).
Bridget, I have to teach Gaudium et spes next week. Please know that "laity can haz opinions" is going to feature somewhere in the lesson, most likely superimposed on a picture of a cat wearing a slipper on its head. That is all.
As Catholics, we are in communion with people in Russia and India, whom we cannot do anything with, could not speak with even if we were transported to the same place, and will never meet. Communion is not about location or uniform experiences, it's about being part of the same covenant and the same Body.
I was homeschooled through CCD, with the pastor's permission. By the time Confirmation classes were coming up, youth group was required. This is where I discovered that not only did the other teens know far less than I did, so did most of the teachers.
I do not think the Church is served well by taking away the opportunity to learn from those who could have it, through homeschooling, in the interest of a uniformly bad education. As a well-catechized adult, I can help others learn and direct them toward good resources. Were I not, I couldn't. Others do far more, and they would also not be able to, without good catechesis from outside their parishes.