I expect that the Vatican press office will obfuscate, and push back on anybody asking: “What does that symbol/statue/song/vestment actually mean?” I don't have a lot of confidence in its abilities.
"... the (rugby) roster was filled out by a combination of exceedingly polite pre-theologians, alongside some of the most delightful beer-swilling party animals that Steubenville could field. ..." Sounds like an interesting group of people.
'..............It is not an ecumenical council. It actually has less authority than a diocesan finance council.'
Thank you for laying out the reality of what this glorified Bishops conference truly is. I am a convert who has been very leery of Pope Francis from the beginning of his papacy, but anyone who thinks this meeting can change Church doctrine on any level is not being realistic or reasonable.
Our Church and our faith was simple and elegant. Christ risen, the Mass, the Gospels and the Sacraments. But now there is strife and division, with the Church becoming a social services organization with a religious component...all fostered by ambiguous blathering from Rome.
To be fair, I don't think there was ever a moment the church wasn't ridden with strife and division of one sort or another. It seems a constant temptation to think ours is the worst state the church has ever been, but even a casual perusal of church history will correct that feeling rather quickly. God has preserved His Church through worse storms than the sure-to-be PR nightmare called the "synod on synodality".
You are leaving out Arius, Luther, Voltaire, and so many others who have brought strife into the Church. It has never been peaceful on earth and won't be until the Second Coming. We are each called to do what we were made for in our own place, and that's it.
RE: Pachamama statues, edited from JD's CNA article
The statues had become recognizable to Catholics around the world. They were featured prominently in an Oct. 4 tree-planting ceremony that kicked off the Amazon synod. They have been a part of daily "moments of spirituality" at the Carmelite church. They have been inside St. Peter's Basilica, at an Amazonian Stations of the Cross, many other events surrounding the Amazon synod...THE BOTTOM OF THE TIBER.
Re: Pachamama moment - That we have to anticipate and offer "prebuttals" for ceremonies officially organized by the Holy See seems emblematic of... something.
Really excellent summary of Pachamama & analysis of what might happen moving forward. I wish more people would recognize that the synod is nothing more than a formalized conversation - the comparison to a diocesan finance meeting put it into perspective perfectly.
Not sure there will be some dramatic moment or totem this time around (hopefully anyway). I think the pre-Synodal multicolor comic sans artwork of the last few years has kind of been Pachamama on slow drip. It has helped create certain expectations both ways and the result will probably be less than each "side" hopes/fears...which may be true of most recent synods.
If the postulated Pachamama Moment of 2023 involves UFOs somehow, that would be delightful and could leverage many interesting beliefs of the various disparate inhabitants of the internet (which is a place, I hear, though like Antarctica it has no indigenous people or I would claim to be one.)
I love JD, but it's flat silly to not simply admit pachamama is a pagan symbol. We can grasp at good intentions. That's all fine and good. It's a good habit to try to see people in the best light you can. But pachamama is a pagan symbol. We have to begin with facts
I also love JD, or try to — but I don’t trust any media sources, and I don’t know enough about South American pagan symbolism to conclude that. I’m not opposed to concluding it, I just don’t have sufficient substantive proof.
I'm a little confused by the question. Are you saying you're not sure pachamama is a pagan symbol or you're not sure that the symbol was in fact pachamama?
I don't think it's really in dispute that it's a pagan symbol with pre-christian origins. There's even a Wikipedia page on it. If you'd like a secular news source check out this AP article.
Now I get that secular sources don't exactly excel at talking about religion, but there a bunch of quotes in there from real people. I also have a friend who grew up in South America who would echo how common pachamama is in some places.
Well that makes more sense. I try very hard to stay out of the business of judging people's intent. It also happens to be a near impossible thing to prove. However I will say if they didn't realize what they were getting into, it shows an incredible amount of incompetence - perhaps that's not surprising. For even the Holy Father (the Brazilian of course) causally referred to them as pachamama. IMO that incompetence outweighs their inability to speak competently to the press.
A whole lotta incompetence going around. And that's the most flattering interpretation
"Incompetence" is indeed the most flattering interpretation. But this pontificate's penchant for trendy inclusivity strikes me as a more accurate one -- which in this context is far more concerning than "malice."
Loved the stained glass window of our Lady of Rugby 🏉 as well as long snapper video pretty amazing 👏. Surprised the Pachamama critics didn't say stained glass was blasphemous too.
The Catholic Church has been having differences of opinion since or before Sts Peter and Paul gentile converts arguments and it was the Holy Spirit that helped Peter to accept Paul's rationale
May the Holy Spirit do the same thing with the faithful believers today partipating in Pope Francis's synod worldwide and in Rome also 😀 just like the good Lord Jesus promised 😀 🙏
I remember as a kid being told that local newspapers were written at an 8th grade reading level. I’m often reading The Pillar with an additional tab open to verify vocabulary. How extraordinary to learn complex news within Holy Mother Church and keep my SAT score respectable. Also, is it just me or does anyone else read Ed’s article with an English accent in their head?
I expect that the Vatican press office will obfuscate, and push back on anybody asking: “What does that symbol/statue/song/vestment actually mean?” I don't have a lot of confidence in its abilities.
"... the (rugby) roster was filled out by a combination of exceedingly polite pre-theologians, alongside some of the most delightful beer-swilling party animals that Steubenville could field. ..." Sounds like an interesting group of people.
it was.
Which camp did you fall into? 😀
I believe the answer is likely truly Catholic: Both/And not Either/Or
Can we get a Pumpkin Spice vs Anti-Pumpkin Spice debate as a bonus on this week's podcast?
sure. I'm pumpkin spice indifferent. I'm *guessing* Ed has strong opinions.
For a reasonable sum, could we get a whole bonus episode on the topic of our choice?
yes.
'..............It is not an ecumenical council. It actually has less authority than a diocesan finance council.'
Thank you for laying out the reality of what this glorified Bishops conference truly is. I am a convert who has been very leery of Pope Francis from the beginning of his papacy, but anyone who thinks this meeting can change Church doctrine on any level is not being realistic or reasonable.
Our Church and our faith was simple and elegant. Christ risen, the Mass, the Gospels and the Sacraments. But now there is strife and division, with the Church becoming a social services organization with a religious component...all fostered by ambiguous blathering from Rome.
To be fair, I don't think there was ever a moment the church wasn't ridden with strife and division of one sort or another. It seems a constant temptation to think ours is the worst state the church has ever been, but even a casual perusal of church history will correct that feeling rather quickly. God has preserved His Church through worse storms than the sure-to-be PR nightmare called the "synod on synodality".
You are leaving out Arius, Luther, Voltaire, and so many others who have brought strife into the Church. It has never been peaceful on earth and won't be until the Second Coming. We are each called to do what we were made for in our own place, and that's it.
RE: Pachamama statues, edited from JD's CNA article
The statues had become recognizable to Catholics around the world. They were featured prominently in an Oct. 4 tree-planting ceremony that kicked off the Amazon synod. They have been a part of daily "moments of spirituality" at the Carmelite church. They have been inside St. Peter's Basilica, at an Amazonian Stations of the Cross, many other events surrounding the Amazon synod...THE BOTTOM OF THE TIBER.
I can't help but think their presence may have induced God to allow the coronavirus to emerge, although I know correlation doesn't equal causation.
You know, I used to think causation equaled correlation. Then I took a class. Now I don't.
Re: Pachamama moment - That we have to anticipate and offer "prebuttals" for ceremonies officially organized by the Holy See seems emblematic of... something.
Really excellent summary of Pachamama & analysis of what might happen moving forward. I wish more people would recognize that the synod is nothing more than a formalized conversation - the comparison to a diocesan finance meeting put it into perspective perfectly.
Please. If Francis thought that's all it would be, he wouldn't bother with it.
Not sure there will be some dramatic moment or totem this time around (hopefully anyway). I think the pre-Synodal multicolor comic sans artwork of the last few years has kind of been Pachamama on slow drip. It has helped create certain expectations both ways and the result will probably be less than each "side" hopes/fears...which may be true of most recent synods.
If the postulated Pachamama Moment of 2023 involves UFOs somehow, that would be delightful and could leverage many interesting beliefs of the various disparate inhabitants of the internet (which is a place, I hear, though like Antarctica it has no indigenous people or I would claim to be one.)
I love JD, but it's flat silly to not simply admit pachamama is a pagan symbol. We can grasp at good intentions. That's all fine and good. It's a good habit to try to see people in the best light you can. But pachamama is a pagan symbol. We have to begin with facts
I also love JD, or try to — but I don’t trust any media sources, and I don’t know enough about South American pagan symbolism to conclude that. I’m not opposed to concluding it, I just don’t have sufficient substantive proof.
Can you point me to it?
I'm a little confused by the question. Are you saying you're not sure pachamama is a pagan symbol or you're not sure that the symbol was in fact pachamama?
I don't think it's really in dispute that it's a pagan symbol with pre-christian origins. There's even a Wikipedia page on it. If you'd like a secular news source check out this AP article.
https://apnews.com/article/32b018bd433d728ba1d29a7bebc6289f
Now I get that secular sources don't exactly excel at talking about religion, but there a bunch of quotes in there from real people. I also have a friend who grew up in South America who would echo how common pachamama is in some places.
I'm not convinced those statues were bought and understood initially as "pachamama."
I am sure that pachamama is a pagan symbol.
Well that makes more sense. I try very hard to stay out of the business of judging people's intent. It also happens to be a near impossible thing to prove. However I will say if they didn't realize what they were getting into, it shows an incredible amount of incompetence - perhaps that's not surprising. For even the Holy Father (the Brazilian of course) causally referred to them as pachamama. IMO that incompetence outweighs their inability to speak competently to the press.
A whole lotta incompetence going around. And that's the most flattering interpretation
"Incompetence" is indeed the most flattering interpretation. But this pontificate's penchant for trendy inclusivity strikes me as a more accurate one -- which in this context is far more concerning than "malice."
Loved the stained glass window of our Lady of Rugby 🏉 as well as long snapper video pretty amazing 👏. Surprised the Pachamama critics didn't say stained glass was blasphemous too.
The Catholic Church has been having differences of opinion since or before Sts Peter and Paul gentile converts arguments and it was the Holy Spirit that helped Peter to accept Paul's rationale
May the Holy Spirit do the same thing with the faithful believers today partipating in Pope Francis's synod worldwide and in Rome also 😀 just like the good Lord Jesus promised 😀 🙏
I trust the Holy Spirit to infuse the Synod.
Rejoice and Be Glad!
The guy who threw those statues in the Tiber is a hero.
I remember as a kid being told that local newspapers were written at an 8th grade reading level. I’m often reading The Pillar with an additional tab open to verify vocabulary. How extraordinary to learn complex news within Holy Mother Church and keep my SAT score respectable. Also, is it just me or does anyone else read Ed’s article with an English accent in their head?
I read Ed's articles with an English accent in my head!