Could you elaborate on this point? Do you mean something like saying "Father I need to consider that further" and pushing along to the next topic, or do you mean getting up and leaving, or something else?
"The way around this is to teach people how to excuse themselves from confession."
In the US church and state have been separate from the beginning with no laws preventing Catholics or the Amish or anyone else from following their faith.
But not by the federal government. And after the 14th Amendment applied the Bill of Rights to the states people's right to practice their faith free from state interference was required by law. The last state to do away with its established religion was Connecticut in 1838. And the law attempting to force the Amish to educate their children beyond grade school was struck down by the Supreme Court.
Poland is unfortunately going the way of Ireland. This petition is outrageous and will not pass.
What is a much greater threat to Polish families is that all Polish schools (public and private, including Catholic ones), will be required, starting in the fall of 2025, to have obligatory and explicit sexual education classes once a week from 4th grade through high school. Kids will be told explicitly about various sexual acts, including sodomy, from grade school on, and no child will be exempt, because no school in Poland can avoid certain obligatory subjects and textbooks that are aligned with that curriculum.
Homosexuality and gender theory will be promoted among kids under the disguise of a "health class."
In forming the current center-left government, the education department was given to the far left socialists (despite that party having received only a small percentage of the popular vote), and they are taking full advantage of it to transform Polish society for the worse..
One would hope schools and teachers will do so, but that is uncertain. Maybe some schools in the more conservative southeast Poland will be able to do so if the local government authorities look the other way, but clandestinely avoiding the required curriculum is not a solution.
It is very difficult to homeschool in Poland because parents need to get the approval of their local public school principal after submitting to the principal a detailed plan of study and after the parents pass a psychological evaluation. If somehow they are approved, the kids have to take exams every year to prove they are progressing, exams kids attending regular schools do not have to take.
Yes, there are a lot of compounding reasons why this is happening in Poland (the secularization of the ordinary people), but Americans still think of Poland as Poland under JPII. Tragically, it is not.
It is still a beacon of faith, but its light is dimming. It’s very sad.
I am 100000% in favor of the state NOT getting involved in any sacrament, in any capacity. But this comment is all about politics (as were the archbishop's statements apparently) and this is what people on the ground are talking about. "Abuses often occur in a sacramental context, related to Mass or confession" As any institution does, unfortunately, instead of trying to be better we tend to become defensive.
As a citizen and a bishop representing millions of Catholic citizens of Poland, Archbishop Gadecki has a right to make political statements affecting him and those he represents.
Gadecki, unlike most bishops, has been very successful in his politics in the past. His immediate protest to attempts by the Polish government officials to shut down Masses in Poland during COVID resulted in Poland being the only country in Europe where churches were left open and the Poles had access to all the Sacraments. He knows what he is doing in pre-emptive attacks against stupid ideas before they bear fruit, and not after all the damage has already been done like in the case of legalizing homosexual marriage and allowing for "sex change" surgeries when the bishops were too late in preventing Catholics from being fooled by harmful propaganda..
Right, the people of Poland don’t want any of that. They don’t want leftist propaganda. They would though like the Church to become a safer environment for children. Of which Poland is still having difficulty admitting it’s not doing that great. It’s certainly not all or even most priests, but it’s more than enough. The archbishop is making a statement that pushes people’s attention away from just how unsafe confession has become for some. This is why, instead of pursuing any sort of political or ideological agenda, it makes sense for the Church to teach children how to remove themselves from unsafe confessions. But if we in the Church wont….whose responsibility does it become? No one. It’s up to us to be saints.
When I was a young adult in DC, after the third time a priest asked me inappropriate questions I finally told him enough. But children don’t know how to do this.They have to be taught, if you are unsure your confession is going well just say “sorry father, I’m not ready to make my act of contrition.” And then excuse yourself and find another adult to ask “hey was that question the priest asked me normal?”
I doubt that the motive of the man submitting the petition in the Polish parliament was anything but an attempt to destroy the Church. It is like singling out the Church regarding sex abuse while public school teachers frequently groom students and pornography pushes many men into deviancy but is not countered by almost any laws.
I have never encountered what you have encountered, nor have I heard it from any Catholic I have talked to, though I do not doubt it happens.
One way kids react to not liking the confession they went to is by not wanting to go back to a certain priest or parish. That is why I know all the confession times at most churches within a 1 hr drive of our home. So I give my kids the choice to decide where to go. I would hope they would tell me if a perverted priest approached them, but at least I give them the option of never going to such a priest again. And since Poland has more churches per square mile than the US with confessions nearly every day, there is ample opportunity for parents to have their kids avoid the few perverts rather than getting rid of the sacrament that helps kids the most in growing in their faith and in purity.
If the family is fundamental unit of civilization, as the Church clearly teaches, then “children need to be protected from their families” is an attack of the very basis of civilization. The bishops need to condemn this belief in the most strident of terms: it is an attack on fundamental human rights.
Moreover, the Church needs to articulate a vision of “the rights of children”. While first and foremost, Children have a right to life, Children also have a right to their parents. From latter stems many particular rights, which can generally be described as rights to protect children from being deprived of their parents’ care, instruction, direction, and governance by the state. Most relevant here, Children have a right to the full participation in the religious life determined by their parents.
Could you elaborate on this point? Do you mean something like saying "Father I need to consider that further" and pushing along to the next topic, or do you mean getting up and leaving, or something else?
"The way around this is to teach people how to excuse themselves from confession."
Thank you, that is a real safeguarding help.
I will pray a Hail Mary for the conversion of Rafał Betlejewski (and, while I am at it, the conversion of the people who signed the petition.)
Gądecki said the petition was reminiscent of the Polish communist authorities’ attitude to the Catholic Church.
“These are old communist tactics propped up by questionable psychology.”
oh_snap.gif
Note to US Christian Nationalists - this happens when you un-separate Church and State.
In the US church and state have been separate from the beginning with no laws preventing Catholics or the Amish or anyone else from following their faith.
Actually, there have been numerous laws in every state restricting religious freedom. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Catholicism_in_the_United_States
But not by the federal government. And after the 14th Amendment applied the Bill of Rights to the states people's right to practice their faith free from state interference was required by law. The last state to do away with its established religion was Connecticut in 1838. And the law attempting to force the Amish to educate their children beyond grade school was struck down by the Supreme Court.
Poland is unfortunately going the way of Ireland. This petition is outrageous and will not pass.
What is a much greater threat to Polish families is that all Polish schools (public and private, including Catholic ones), will be required, starting in the fall of 2025, to have obligatory and explicit sexual education classes once a week from 4th grade through high school. Kids will be told explicitly about various sexual acts, including sodomy, from grade school on, and no child will be exempt, because no school in Poland can avoid certain obligatory subjects and textbooks that are aligned with that curriculum.
Homosexuality and gender theory will be promoted among kids under the disguise of a "health class."
In forming the current center-left government, the education department was given to the far left socialists (despite that party having received only a small percentage of the popular vote), and they are taking full advantage of it to transform Polish society for the worse..
One might ask why the first thing leftists think to do with schools is to systematically sexually abuse the children.
Schools and teachers ought to simply ignore the requirement. There's also homeschooling. And mass protests.
One would hope schools and teachers will do so, but that is uncertain. Maybe some schools in the more conservative southeast Poland will be able to do so if the local government authorities look the other way, but clandestinely avoiding the required curriculum is not a solution.
It is very difficult to homeschool in Poland because parents need to get the approval of their local public school principal after submitting to the principal a detailed plan of study and after the parents pass a psychological evaluation. If somehow they are approved, the kids have to take exams every year to prove they are progressing, exams kids attending regular schools do not have to take.
Yes, there are a lot of compounding reasons why this is happening in Poland (the secularization of the ordinary people), but Americans still think of Poland as Poland under JPII. Tragically, it is not.
It is still a beacon of faith, but its light is dimming. It’s very sad.
I am 100000% in favor of the state NOT getting involved in any sacrament, in any capacity. But this comment is all about politics (as were the archbishop's statements apparently) and this is what people on the ground are talking about. "Abuses often occur in a sacramental context, related to Mass or confession" As any institution does, unfortunately, instead of trying to be better we tend to become defensive.
https://international.la-croix.com/ethics/sexual-abuses-often-occur-in-a-sacramental-context-such-as-mass-or-confession
As a citizen and a bishop representing millions of Catholic citizens of Poland, Archbishop Gadecki has a right to make political statements affecting him and those he represents.
Gadecki, unlike most bishops, has been very successful in his politics in the past. His immediate protest to attempts by the Polish government officials to shut down Masses in Poland during COVID resulted in Poland being the only country in Europe where churches were left open and the Poles had access to all the Sacraments. He knows what he is doing in pre-emptive attacks against stupid ideas before they bear fruit, and not after all the damage has already been done like in the case of legalizing homosexual marriage and allowing for "sex change" surgeries when the bishops were too late in preventing Catholics from being fooled by harmful propaganda..
Right, the people of Poland don’t want any of that. They don’t want leftist propaganda. They would though like the Church to become a safer environment for children. Of which Poland is still having difficulty admitting it’s not doing that great. It’s certainly not all or even most priests, but it’s more than enough. The archbishop is making a statement that pushes people’s attention away from just how unsafe confession has become for some. This is why, instead of pursuing any sort of political or ideological agenda, it makes sense for the Church to teach children how to remove themselves from unsafe confessions. But if we in the Church wont….whose responsibility does it become? No one. It’s up to us to be saints.
When I was a young adult in DC, after the third time a priest asked me inappropriate questions I finally told him enough. But children don’t know how to do this.They have to be taught, if you are unsure your confession is going well just say “sorry father, I’m not ready to make my act of contrition.” And then excuse yourself and find another adult to ask “hey was that question the priest asked me normal?”
I doubt that the motive of the man submitting the petition in the Polish parliament was anything but an attempt to destroy the Church. It is like singling out the Church regarding sex abuse while public school teachers frequently groom students and pornography pushes many men into deviancy but is not countered by almost any laws.
I have never encountered what you have encountered, nor have I heard it from any Catholic I have talked to, though I do not doubt it happens.
One way kids react to not liking the confession they went to is by not wanting to go back to a certain priest or parish. That is why I know all the confession times at most churches within a 1 hr drive of our home. So I give my kids the choice to decide where to go. I would hope they would tell me if a perverted priest approached them, but at least I give them the option of never going to such a priest again. And since Poland has more churches per square mile than the US with confessions nearly every day, there is ample opportunity for parents to have their kids avoid the few perverts rather than getting rid of the sacrament that helps kids the most in growing in their faith and in purity.
I too, am very conservative. We're aligned.
Also a quick note of gratitude for pushing back on any attempt to close churches during COVID!
What did performance artists do before the modern era?
Starve.
If the family is fundamental unit of civilization, as the Church clearly teaches, then “children need to be protected from their families” is an attack of the very basis of civilization. The bishops need to condemn this belief in the most strident of terms: it is an attack on fundamental human rights.
Moreover, the Church needs to articulate a vision of “the rights of children”. While first and foremost, Children have a right to life, Children also have a right to their parents. From latter stems many particular rights, which can generally be described as rights to protect children from being deprived of their parents’ care, instruction, direction, and governance by the state. Most relevant here, Children have a right to the full participation in the religious life determined by their parents.