Is that really what makes a community deserving of a parish? Genuinely wondering. If that’s the case, a whole lot of churches should close in the US. I looked up this diocese’s stats, and according to this site, they have ~100,000 Catholics, 38 priests and 34 parishes and it looks like this was before the consolidation. It makes sense to…
Is that really what makes a community deserving of a parish? Genuinely wondering. If that’s the case, a whole lot of churches should close in the US. I looked up this diocese’s stats, and according to this site, they have ~100,000 Catholics, 38 priests and 34 parishes and it looks like this was before the consolidation. It makes sense to me that if they are consolidating several parishes that would allow for at least this one church to remain unconsolidated and have a priest. Another commenter said that they have 1 seminarian in the entire diocese. Can’t fact check that because I don’t know where to get that info, but if that’s the case, sounds like the problem here needs a fix that goes deeper than simply consolidating. They will consolidate until they disappear at this rate. Perhaps giving this small community with great zeal some special love would be fruitful.
Seminarians from a parish are not the only, nor even the primary factor, but they are an important consideration. How can people expect to have priests if they don't provide the diocese with seminarians? In many dioceses, there are often only a handful of them that provide the great majority of seminarians. I would say that if a parish has not produced a vocation to the seminary in the last 30 years, they should make an examination of conscience and discern why that is the case. It could be bad or even scandalous priests, which is not the fault of the parishioners, but there could also be other factors that they can change.
Certainly true. I just think in the meantime there are big things at stake for this community. Seems like they are going about the proper methods to keep the church they love intact. If lack of seminarians is the reason the Bishop is consolidating this parish, he should have communicated that and not allowed them to purchase the property. He also shouldn't have sold the parish outside of what appears to be the proper order of a suppression. Now that this all has unfolded it seems to me like it would be a good thing for him to have some open dialogue with the parish. Clearly the community cares, this seems like it might be a good opportunity to try some of that "change" you mentioned.
My objection to this and many other diocese's approaches to "consolidation" is that they seem to be conducted from purely a business perspective. "Oh, look, lots of Catholics have moved out of this neighborhood, let's shut the Parish down," when the response should always be "Oh, look, lots of non-Catholics have moved into of this neighborhood, how can we evangelize them?"
It seems that so many bishops are clueless or timid about evangelization, but very comfortable working with business consultants and plenty aggressive about shutting down parishes - perhaps that's the way things are now, with this current generation. But I believe bishops should fight for the soul of every single person in their diocese, Catholic or not. Until bishops think this way, our Church will continue to be defensive, retreating against the forces of evil, and not a Church Militant.
This is definetly a way to go, but the unfortunate reality is that these evangelization efforts end up falling back upon the parish priest's to-do list. At the end of the day, bishops will be more concerned about the cathedradic numbers than he is about the number of new parish members.
We've created a passive laity that will only follow the priest's lead. Better to raise up mature lay people with a heart for evangelization who will move to these parishes (and with the spiritual support of the pastor) go out to find the lost and invite others to become a member of the Church.
I guess what I left unspoken is that troubled parishes (or diocese) are where the reinforcements need to be - including paid staff, purchased resources, whatever it takes. Our Church doesn't seem to consider widespread atheism or paganism to be an emergency requiring an emergency response.
When my father was a teenager, during WWII, he and another altar server would accompany their parish priest to the rail yards of Indianapolis. There, the priest would engage with passing railroad workers, calling to them, encouraging, debating and even arguing with them. Several times, one or more of the more belligerent workers would try to attack the priest (thus the presence of my dad and his friend, as bodyguards more than "assistants"). The point is, that priest contended with the faithless as - and where - they were. Today's priests and bishops have an opportunity to contend in every struggling parish and diocese - it's a wonderful, exciting opportunity for them, not an occasion for retreat. And the fact that so few do that is precisely the real problem of our Church. Metrics like "fewer vocations" or "shrinking numbers attending Mass weekly" are just symptoms of a sickness that begins - and ends - with our priests and bishops.
The laity are key, absolutely central, but whenever possible they must be guided and led, in the spiritual and motivational sense, by our clergy. This effort has to come from the top.
I see so many Protestant churches where the congregants do such a good job of evangelization - or at least, a more extroverted job. I'm talking about little things like Internet advertising. Small flyers with internet links and QR codes to access more info (and "show this flyer to someone at your local parish when you arrive"). A true parish welcoming committee - they should be a non-Catholic visitor's first catechist, someone who's trained to act when a newcomer shows them that flyer or whatever. Public speaking (by trained, designated speakers). Billboards. Whatever works.
It seems there are always laity or consecrated religious who are thrilled to run a soup kitchen for homeless people, but precious few are willing to think through and execute the unglamorous work of delivering the Truth of our Holy Mother Church to someone in their neighborhood. If we don't change that, we'll continue to decline as a faith and a people.
I am always impressed by the groups of evangelical men who get together for breakfast to read Sacred Scripture and share their faith. Catholics, for the most part, seem to be uncomfortable with sharing and talking about our faith. We love demonstrating our faith (food kitchens, schools0 but not so much in sharing it.
My parish is basically an experiment in this - small, aging population, in a trendy, growing neighborhood but distinctly non religious (you'll understand the area well if you know that the local Lutheran church shut down; and was bought by an org that turned it into the "Church of Cannabis").
My understanding is the parish was slated for closure in 2021, but because of the neighborhood factors was handed over to a missionary group instead. They came in with a lot of resources (priests, trained lay missionaries, "interns" who go door to door for a couple months) and it's still an uphill climb I think - it takes time to build that kind of culture at a parish, time for people to grow into it (like I would have said I was comfortable with the idea of evangelization, but now I'm watching this happen and thinking no way would I want to go knock on doors). I would put no better than 50/50 odds on the parish still being open in 5 yrs
That's extremely interesting, thank you for posting that. I expect more success in the kind of parish areas where there's some degree of receptivity to the Christian message, not someplace where a "church of cannabis" might gain traction with locals. Still, the whole point is to contend - just maybe prioritize that work, right?
Is that really what makes a community deserving of a parish? Genuinely wondering. If that’s the case, a whole lot of churches should close in the US. I looked up this diocese’s stats, and according to this site, they have ~100,000 Catholics, 38 priests and 34 parishes and it looks like this was before the consolidation. It makes sense to me that if they are consolidating several parishes that would allow for at least this one church to remain unconsolidated and have a priest. Another commenter said that they have 1 seminarian in the entire diocese. Can’t fact check that because I don’t know where to get that info, but if that’s the case, sounds like the problem here needs a fix that goes deeper than simply consolidating. They will consolidate until they disappear at this rate. Perhaps giving this small community with great zeal some special love would be fruitful.
https://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/diocese/dstjn.html
^forgot to post the source
Seminarians from a parish are not the only, nor even the primary factor, but they are an important consideration. How can people expect to have priests if they don't provide the diocese with seminarians? In many dioceses, there are often only a handful of them that provide the great majority of seminarians. I would say that if a parish has not produced a vocation to the seminary in the last 30 years, they should make an examination of conscience and discern why that is the case. It could be bad or even scandalous priests, which is not the fault of the parishioners, but there could also be other factors that they can change.
Certainly true. I just think in the meantime there are big things at stake for this community. Seems like they are going about the proper methods to keep the church they love intact. If lack of seminarians is the reason the Bishop is consolidating this parish, he should have communicated that and not allowed them to purchase the property. He also shouldn't have sold the parish outside of what appears to be the proper order of a suppression. Now that this all has unfolded it seems to me like it would be a good thing for him to have some open dialogue with the parish. Clearly the community cares, this seems like it might be a good opportunity to try some of that "change" you mentioned.
My objection to this and many other diocese's approaches to "consolidation" is that they seem to be conducted from purely a business perspective. "Oh, look, lots of Catholics have moved out of this neighborhood, let's shut the Parish down," when the response should always be "Oh, look, lots of non-Catholics have moved into of this neighborhood, how can we evangelize them?"
It seems that so many bishops are clueless or timid about evangelization, but very comfortable working with business consultants and plenty aggressive about shutting down parishes - perhaps that's the way things are now, with this current generation. But I believe bishops should fight for the soul of every single person in their diocese, Catholic or not. Until bishops think this way, our Church will continue to be defensive, retreating against the forces of evil, and not a Church Militant.
This is definetly a way to go, but the unfortunate reality is that these evangelization efforts end up falling back upon the parish priest's to-do list. At the end of the day, bishops will be more concerned about the cathedradic numbers than he is about the number of new parish members.
We've created a passive laity that will only follow the priest's lead. Better to raise up mature lay people with a heart for evangelization who will move to these parishes (and with the spiritual support of the pastor) go out to find the lost and invite others to become a member of the Church.
I guess what I left unspoken is that troubled parishes (or diocese) are where the reinforcements need to be - including paid staff, purchased resources, whatever it takes. Our Church doesn't seem to consider widespread atheism or paganism to be an emergency requiring an emergency response.
When my father was a teenager, during WWII, he and another altar server would accompany their parish priest to the rail yards of Indianapolis. There, the priest would engage with passing railroad workers, calling to them, encouraging, debating and even arguing with them. Several times, one or more of the more belligerent workers would try to attack the priest (thus the presence of my dad and his friend, as bodyguards more than "assistants"). The point is, that priest contended with the faithless as - and where - they were. Today's priests and bishops have an opportunity to contend in every struggling parish and diocese - it's a wonderful, exciting opportunity for them, not an occasion for retreat. And the fact that so few do that is precisely the real problem of our Church. Metrics like "fewer vocations" or "shrinking numbers attending Mass weekly" are just symptoms of a sickness that begins - and ends - with our priests and bishops.
Pray for them.
Wonderful experience wouldn't it be great though if we could find laity to do what the priest did? We could multiply this by 1000.
The laity are key, absolutely central, but whenever possible they must be guided and led, in the spiritual and motivational sense, by our clergy. This effort has to come from the top.
I see so many Protestant churches where the congregants do such a good job of evangelization - or at least, a more extroverted job. I'm talking about little things like Internet advertising. Small flyers with internet links and QR codes to access more info (and "show this flyer to someone at your local parish when you arrive"). A true parish welcoming committee - they should be a non-Catholic visitor's first catechist, someone who's trained to act when a newcomer shows them that flyer or whatever. Public speaking (by trained, designated speakers). Billboards. Whatever works.
It seems there are always laity or consecrated religious who are thrilled to run a soup kitchen for homeless people, but precious few are willing to think through and execute the unglamorous work of delivering the Truth of our Holy Mother Church to someone in their neighborhood. If we don't change that, we'll continue to decline as a faith and a people.
I am always impressed by the groups of evangelical men who get together for breakfast to read Sacred Scripture and share their faith. Catholics, for the most part, seem to be uncomfortable with sharing and talking about our faith. We love demonstrating our faith (food kitchens, schools0 but not so much in sharing it.
Since they are right there with the homeless perhaps they should focus their evangelization efforts on them first.
My parish is basically an experiment in this - small, aging population, in a trendy, growing neighborhood but distinctly non religious (you'll understand the area well if you know that the local Lutheran church shut down; and was bought by an org that turned it into the "Church of Cannabis").
My understanding is the parish was slated for closure in 2021, but because of the neighborhood factors was handed over to a missionary group instead. They came in with a lot of resources (priests, trained lay missionaries, "interns" who go door to door for a couple months) and it's still an uphill climb I think - it takes time to build that kind of culture at a parish, time for people to grow into it (like I would have said I was comfortable with the idea of evangelization, but now I'm watching this happen and thinking no way would I want to go knock on doors). I would put no better than 50/50 odds on the parish still being open in 5 yrs
That's extremely interesting, thank you for posting that. I expect more success in the kind of parish areas where there's some degree of receptivity to the Christian message, not someplace where a "church of cannabis" might gain traction with locals. Still, the whole point is to contend - just maybe prioritize that work, right?