My favorite irony in all this TLM business is that this sort of lay participation is very much called for by Vatican II. From the formation of Ecclesia Dei societies throughout the land to scouring the chancery rosters for sympathetic priests to say a Mass here and there at this time and that, to educating curious onlookers, to learning …
My favorite irony in all this TLM business is that this sort of lay participation is very much called for by Vatican II. From the formation of Ecclesia Dei societies throughout the land to scouring the chancery rosters for sympathetic priests to say a Mass here and there at this time and that, to educating curious onlookers, to learning the chants, to teaching sympathetic but unfamiliar priests how the Mass is to be said to training altar boys to petitioning bishops for space, this has largely been an initiative of the laity, and as such, very much that which was desired by Vatican II.
Laity wanting heresy? Let us listen and accompany.
Laity wanting wanting to pray the Mass as their great grandfathers did? Let them be anathema. Put them in the gymnasium. Shut them down.
Yes, the laity at "TLM parishes" are on average far more active in participating in both the liturgy and the spiritual/communal life of the parish than the average "Saint Suburbia" "Beige Catholicism" parish. The TLMers are the models of active lay participation in every sense.
Matthew, when you use those terms about parishes in the suburbs, you lose fellow Catholics’ empathy. There are many people in our very strong liturgically, beautiful suburban parish who support those who find beauty in the TLM and are also dumbfounded about this. It doesn’t seem prudent to mock fellow sojourners, even if they seem to be hanging out at the beer stands, or even wandering somewhere else.
Where did Matthew mock the Mass? I don't even see that he talks about the Mass. He talks about parish life. "Beige Catholicism" is a term that has been employed both by Larry Chapp in his essays on his blog Guadium et Spes 22 and writings for the NC Register and and Catholic World Report, and I've heard Bishop Barron use the term, and I'm sure that others have besides.
That there are happy exceptions doesn't disprove a real phenomenon of a bourgeois, suburban, beige Catholicism concerned with relative comfort (physical and spiritual) and a sort of Moral Therapeutic Deism.
I stand corrected, Paul, and I removed/changed my last sentences. (I shouldn’t be taking time out from my daily tasks around the house so God’s letting me know that.) One way to face such a “bland”phenomenon is to stay and permit the Holy Spirit to work through us as salt. And there are some holy people planting seeds everywhere, just as there can be hypocrisy and overly-comfortableness in both Mass settings. May the wisdom of the past two Holy Fathers prevail regarding this. Peace out!
I think you're absolutely right about being salt in a community! This fact is, I think, one of the negative things about the (self) herding of many people who are very serious about their faith (and the trappings thereof) into TLM sites. Painting with broad brushstrokes here and acknowledging that there are wonderful people at excellent regular parishes (I strive to be one of them!), droves of people who would be scattered salt throughout a diocese in their parishes for a more...robust...parish presentation of the Transcendentals are concentrated in small (as a share of diocesean life) and often diocesan-adjacent communities. This is an impoverishment.
I tell you what, Paul- for the past 2.5 decades, our family has not moved out of our home parish boundaries to regularly attend Mass and participate in parish life elsewhere. (We homeschooled so we did get involved in many efforts- but never switched parishes). We’ve been blessed with faithful pastors, mostly great associates, too, but there always comes a time when there are/will be differences and I know that some- maybe many- suffer under pastors who are not faithful or are bland. That is a true suffering, and in past locations I suffered through that. In our archdiocese we are so blessed to be able to travel easily to many good parishes, including a great FSSP city parish. It has been painful to watch some young faithful families leave our parish, with reverent beautiful liturgies and real movement towards mission discipleship, to be up there- but just as God called us to homeschool (rather- similarly), they are called to go there. I do think that decision has to be made carefully, though. If your parish home is “nomad” (and not saying this situation is, please!), it’s hard to expect your children to settle down as adults- to ride out the good and the bad, the rain and the heat.
What? Clearly the phrase “Saint Suburbia” is describing a kind of parish, one obviously not limited to a zone of urban-planning (though inspired, nonetheless, by an undeniable past connection from which it derives its name).
We can describe any person as “being provincial” to describe their simpleness, naïveté, and lack of broad worldly knowledge… but they don’t have to be from rural area.
It doesn’t negate the trend. Good for you. Same with my NO parish. I may be pretty stupid, but I’m not dumb: I know my parish is an absolute statistical outlier by every metric.
Around here I don't think my parish is that much of an outlier. For one thing, a lot of African priests attend Notre Dame studying all sorts of things (the Church in Uganda, for example, has a national bank and need priests trained in finances). Parishes often have a student auxiliary priest living in the rectory and saying some of the Masses. Since my Dad's Trinidadian accent is similar to the Nigerian, I can usually understand them even if they have a bit of an accent but most of them have excellent American English pronunciation. I suspect their presence helps keep the local NO parish Masses by the book
My favorite irony in all this TLM business is that this sort of lay participation is very much called for by Vatican II. From the formation of Ecclesia Dei societies throughout the land to scouring the chancery rosters for sympathetic priests to say a Mass here and there at this time and that, to educating curious onlookers, to learning the chants, to teaching sympathetic but unfamiliar priests how the Mass is to be said to training altar boys to petitioning bishops for space, this has largely been an initiative of the laity, and as such, very much that which was desired by Vatican II.
Laity wanting heresy? Let us listen and accompany.
Laity wanting wanting to pray the Mass as their great grandfathers did? Let them be anathema. Put them in the gymnasium. Shut them down.
Much silliness.
Yes, the laity at "TLM parishes" are on average far more active in participating in both the liturgy and the spiritual/communal life of the parish than the average "Saint Suburbia" "Beige Catholicism" parish. The TLMers are the models of active lay participation in every sense.
Matthew, when you use those terms about parishes in the suburbs, you lose fellow Catholics’ empathy. There are many people in our very strong liturgically, beautiful suburban parish who support those who find beauty in the TLM and are also dumbfounded about this. It doesn’t seem prudent to mock fellow sojourners, even if they seem to be hanging out at the beer stands, or even wandering somewhere else.
Where did Matthew mock the Mass? I don't even see that he talks about the Mass. He talks about parish life. "Beige Catholicism" is a term that has been employed both by Larry Chapp in his essays on his blog Guadium et Spes 22 and writings for the NC Register and and Catholic World Report, and I've heard Bishop Barron use the term, and I'm sure that others have besides.
That there are happy exceptions doesn't disprove a real phenomenon of a bourgeois, suburban, beige Catholicism concerned with relative comfort (physical and spiritual) and a sort of Moral Therapeutic Deism.
To the extent that you're interested: https://gaudiumetspes22.com/blog/bourgeois-and-beige-christianity-the-prosperity-gospel-and-the-american-cult-of-mammon and many other excellent thought pieces besides.
I stand corrected, Paul, and I removed/changed my last sentences. (I shouldn’t be taking time out from my daily tasks around the house so God’s letting me know that.) One way to face such a “bland”phenomenon is to stay and permit the Holy Spirit to work through us as salt. And there are some holy people planting seeds everywhere, just as there can be hypocrisy and overly-comfortableness in both Mass settings. May the wisdom of the past two Holy Fathers prevail regarding this. Peace out!
I think you're absolutely right about being salt in a community! This fact is, I think, one of the negative things about the (self) herding of many people who are very serious about their faith (and the trappings thereof) into TLM sites. Painting with broad brushstrokes here and acknowledging that there are wonderful people at excellent regular parishes (I strive to be one of them!), droves of people who would be scattered salt throughout a diocese in their parishes for a more...robust...parish presentation of the Transcendentals are concentrated in small (as a share of diocesean life) and often diocesan-adjacent communities. This is an impoverishment.
Keep on keepin' on!
I tell you what, Paul- for the past 2.5 decades, our family has not moved out of our home parish boundaries to regularly attend Mass and participate in parish life elsewhere. (We homeschooled so we did get involved in many efforts- but never switched parishes). We’ve been blessed with faithful pastors, mostly great associates, too, but there always comes a time when there are/will be differences and I know that some- maybe many- suffer under pastors who are not faithful or are bland. That is a true suffering, and in past locations I suffered through that. In our archdiocese we are so blessed to be able to travel easily to many good parishes, including a great FSSP city parish. It has been painful to watch some young faithful families leave our parish, with reverent beautiful liturgies and real movement towards mission discipleship, to be up there- but just as God called us to homeschool (rather- similarly), they are called to go there. I do think that decision has to be made carefully, though. If your parish home is “nomad” (and not saying this situation is, please!), it’s hard to expect your children to settle down as adults- to ride out the good and the bad, the rain and the heat.
I think that's very well-said all around!
What? Clearly the phrase “Saint Suburbia” is describing a kind of parish, one obviously not limited to a zone of urban-planning (though inspired, nonetheless, by an undeniable past connection from which it derives its name).
We can describe any person as “being provincial” to describe their simpleness, naïveté, and lack of broad worldly knowledge… but they don’t have to be from rural area.
Well, yes, of course! So I imply the same broad term- although suburbs are literally where there is often that comfortable complacency.
You obviously don't attend my NO parish.
Yep, I don’t!
It doesn’t negate the trend. Good for you. Same with my NO parish. I may be pretty stupid, but I’m not dumb: I know my parish is an absolute statistical outlier by every metric.
Around here I don't think my parish is that much of an outlier. For one thing, a lot of African priests attend Notre Dame studying all sorts of things (the Church in Uganda, for example, has a national bank and need priests trained in finances). Parishes often have a student auxiliary priest living in the rectory and saying some of the Masses. Since my Dad's Trinidadian accent is similar to the Nigerian, I can usually understand them even if they have a bit of an accent but most of them have excellent American English pronunciation. I suspect their presence helps keep the local NO parish Masses by the book
// Much silliness. //
They want to control the environment. They can. With no other options, people will adapt to what they're given.