I hadn't realized that the diocese of Armagh would presently span territory in both Ireland and Northern Ireland, as I did not realize that some dioceses may or even could cross national borders. But it makes sense, especially in cases of national boundaries which have been redrawn (sometimes many times) in the past century. I am curious…
I hadn't realized that the diocese of Armagh would presently span territory in both Ireland and Northern Ireland, as I did not realize that some dioceses may or even could cross national borders. But it makes sense, especially in cases of national boundaries which have been redrawn (sometimes many times) in the past century. I am curious if is common at all for dioceses to re-arrange when national borders are rearranged, or if the Church tends to preserve historic boundaries of dioceses in an effort to maintain the reality and titles of the Churches which have existed therein. I am curious, too, how bishops manage dioceses which have territory within multiple present-day nations, and if there are any particular administrative challenges associated with that.
It took a few decades for the Church to recognize the post-Yalta boundaries. New western Ukraine was still classified as eastern Poland, and in turn new western Poland was still considered eastern Germany. If I recall correctly it was during the 1970s Ostpolitik that the Vatican gave in and admitted Breslau was now Wroclaw etc. Also interesting is the question of the first created, then eliminated boundary between the FRG and GDR. Based on the current map, the Archdiocese of Hamburg seems to clearly cross the ex-boundary, while other dioceses seem basically aligned with where it used to be. But I don't know when these present diocesan lines were drawn, whether before, during, or after the divided interlude.
In Ireland I assume there was zero support among the Catholic populace for realigning the boundaries. Anything that made the national boundary seem like a mistake would have been a thing they wanted to see continue.
The Archdiocese of Cardiff (south east Wales) includes the adjacent English county of Herefordshire. As another commentator noted, the multiple brutal 20th century national boundary changes across Europe produced all sorts of anomalies.
One of my favourites is Alsace, which has migrated between France and Germany. The street names are displayed in French and Alsatian German. It is in France for the time being. In 1905 the anti clerical French government nationalised Church property. But Alsace was in Germany at that time, so that appalling law has never been applied on that area.
Longer term history produces some really odd looking dioceses. My own diocese Portsmouth, in southern England, stretches from the south edge of Oxford to the Channel Islands, which are a few miles west of Normandy. The Channel Islands were once part of the Duchy of Normandy.... And then there was the Norman Conquest of England in 1066.
Although most of Belgium's dioceses line up with the secular provinces, the Archdiocese of Mechelen-Brussels covers two distinct cultural and linguistic people: The Walloons and the Flemish. I'm not sure how that works out on the parish level.
Part of it is probably because of the location of Armagh being in the North. Because of its association with St. Patrick (and some early medieval political considerations), Armagh has been the preeminent see in Ireland for over a millennium, beginning in a time when Dublin didn't even exist yet. By the time Dublin emerged as a capital with actual administrative power over the whole island rather than just a de jure control of Ireland on paper, the English who controlled Dublin had become protestants. To impose partition (the 6 counties in the north being split from the 32 in the south) by putting the north (and Armagh) in a separate territory while making Dublin the capital of Irish Catholicism would have been intolerable. It's a bit like if Baltimore had been the hub of American Catholicism for centuries before New York or DC even existed or had any real importance.
I hadn't realized that the diocese of Armagh would presently span territory in both Ireland and Northern Ireland, as I did not realize that some dioceses may or even could cross national borders. But it makes sense, especially in cases of national boundaries which have been redrawn (sometimes many times) in the past century. I am curious if is common at all for dioceses to re-arrange when national borders are rearranged, or if the Church tends to preserve historic boundaries of dioceses in an effort to maintain the reality and titles of the Churches which have existed therein. I am curious, too, how bishops manage dioceses which have territory within multiple present-day nations, and if there are any particular administrative challenges associated with that.
It took a few decades for the Church to recognize the post-Yalta boundaries. New western Ukraine was still classified as eastern Poland, and in turn new western Poland was still considered eastern Germany. If I recall correctly it was during the 1970s Ostpolitik that the Vatican gave in and admitted Breslau was now Wroclaw etc. Also interesting is the question of the first created, then eliminated boundary between the FRG and GDR. Based on the current map, the Archdiocese of Hamburg seems to clearly cross the ex-boundary, while other dioceses seem basically aligned with where it used to be. But I don't know when these present diocesan lines were drawn, whether before, during, or after the divided interlude.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Catholic_dioceses_in_Germany#/media/File:Deutschland_Kirchenprovinzen_beschriftet.png
In Ireland I assume there was zero support among the Catholic populace for realigning the boundaries. Anything that made the national boundary seem like a mistake would have been a thing they wanted to see continue.
The Archdiocese of Cardiff (south east Wales) includes the adjacent English county of Herefordshire. As another commentator noted, the multiple brutal 20th century national boundary changes across Europe produced all sorts of anomalies.
One of my favourites is Alsace, which has migrated between France and Germany. The street names are displayed in French and Alsatian German. It is in France for the time being. In 1905 the anti clerical French government nationalised Church property. But Alsace was in Germany at that time, so that appalling law has never been applied on that area.
Longer term history produces some really odd looking dioceses. My own diocese Portsmouth, in southern England, stretches from the south edge of Oxford to the Channel Islands, which are a few miles west of Normandy. The Channel Islands were once part of the Duchy of Normandy.... And then there was the Norman Conquest of England in 1066.
These are great questions. I remember this report during the coronavirus crisis, about a parish which covers both sides of the border between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. On one side, public Masses were suspended, while on the other, they were permitted, creating a peculiar situation in the parish: https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/46220/its-quite-sad-at-the-moment-coronavirus-curbs-deprive-part-of-border-parish-of-public-masses
Although most of Belgium's dioceses line up with the secular provinces, the Archdiocese of Mechelen-Brussels covers two distinct cultural and linguistic people: The Walloons and the Flemish. I'm not sure how that works out on the parish level.
Part of it is probably because of the location of Armagh being in the North. Because of its association with St. Patrick (and some early medieval political considerations), Armagh has been the preeminent see in Ireland for over a millennium, beginning in a time when Dublin didn't even exist yet. By the time Dublin emerged as a capital with actual administrative power over the whole island rather than just a de jure control of Ireland on paper, the English who controlled Dublin had become protestants. To impose partition (the 6 counties in the north being split from the 32 in the south) by putting the north (and Armagh) in a separate territory while making Dublin the capital of Irish Catholicism would have been intolerable. It's a bit like if Baltimore had been the hub of American Catholicism for centuries before New York or DC even existed or had any real importance.
The comments in this sub thread were interesting to me. I’m ignorant of these topics, but I enjoy a brief history lesson as much as the next guy!