Don't take a hostage you aren't willing to shoot. That may be a problem the Vatican now has. They are saying "do this or face a schism" yet have not seem to have thought out what a schism would actually entail if 90% of the priests in the area refused compliance.
It appears there are increasing voices in the synod adopting the less insane approach of not creating a schism just to show you are in control. Hopefully they win out, yet I think even if the Synod made a choice, it would not be enough for rome to back down, as Francis has invested far too much of his authority in the issue.
You can't give a hecklers veto to the papal magisterium. Previous popes were smart and humble enough not to give an opportunity for said hecklers veto. We may learn the consequences of that shortly.
Do you think this will have any implications for how the TLM will be handled by Rome in the near future? Seems like the outcome of this will have big ramifications for the TLM crowd as well.
Not directly, but yeah, people are obviously going to be paying attention to what happens here with a certain interest beyond that region of India where the dispute runs hottest.
I don't expect fistfights or the burning of effigies or the like. A lot of American Catholics, for example, will simply march resolutely and (relatively) quietly into schism with the SSPX. But the damage will be done, nevertheless.
Yeah that's my expectation as well. If (and that's a big if at this point) more restrictions are placed on the TLM, then SSPX will likely see a huge influx of people.
Everything I have read about this so far has shown that the Syro-Malabar priests have no intention of backing down, and that obviously appears to be what is happening. Did the Vatican really think they weren't going to get called on their bluff? Or maybe they aren't bluffing and really intend to excommunicate 90% of the priests involved?
It's entirely possible the Vatican thought they weren't going to be called on it. The previous ultimatum they issued, which was for the priests to celebrate the new uniform compromise liturgy on a particular day, the priests complied with. If they're not getting an accurate read in Italy regarding what people are thinking in India, via the two or three people going between both, they could come to virtually any conclusion.
I wonder if they could have gotten away with requiring every priest to offer at least one uniform compromise liturgy every Sunday, and the rest either entirely ad orientum or entirely ad populum or official compromise. Probably would have defeated the purpose though...
I commented in this months ago saying that they will not excommunicate all of the priests, and I still don't think they will do it. They would essentially be cutting loose an entire diocese over a liturgical quibble.
I actually think that Rome needs to follow through if they want to maintain their authority in the future, but I suspect they won't have the willpower to go through with their threat. If they blink here it sends a message to other parts of the world that if you complain and defy enough, you'll get your way. I just don't think Pope Francis wants the stain of a significant schism on his record and he will do whatever it takes to avoid it, even if it means giving in eventually. I have no investment in this dispute but if I were on the side of the protesters I would stand my ground.
The recent news that the TLM may be banned entirely gives this story even more intrigue. How Rome handles this may send a message for that eventuality.
I searched the web and found Rorate Caeli has a blog post with what they (with honesty) describe as "a rumor" from what they describe as credible sources, but the substance of the blog post is that people should offer prayer, sacrifice, and penance (I have no objection to prayer, sacrifice and penance, which I believe to be powerful and useful, but I would add that the enemy, which is the devil and not any human being, always desires us to be anxious about the future and always desires to destroy our peace and our trust in God and is frequently able to do this through rumors and contagious emotions. So I would add in particular, a peaceful resignation in advance to God's will whatever it may be *without* imagining in any way what the possibilities are; just a blank check made out to God.)
Yeah it was the Rorate Caeli post as Bridget said. They seem to be taking this as a real threat. They haven't been 100% accurate in the past about all of the TLM restrictions but they were posting pretty accurately about TC before it actually happened, so they clearly have some sources in Rome. It's still a rumor at this point but I find it believable, mainly because of Pope Francis' health being a big question lately and I can see those interested in stamping out the TLM trying to move quickly to get it done.
Rorate updated this morning on X that he was reporting on a document that was in draft by a person or persons who then intended to get the HF to sign it. That's pretty far from a sure thing.
> But in a novel act, a group of nine laymen turned copies of the letter into paper boats and released them on Vembanad Lake, India’s longest lake.
I watched the video (not comprehending the audio) and the part where they scoot the water along with their hands to make the boats move away since the water had no current would be Monty-Python-style funny if the entire matter were not deeply, deeply tragic. I will ask St Thomas to pray for everyone involved. All things are possible with God, but a willingness on our part to receive graces of humility and obedience (even a very little bit to allow him to get a foot in the door) is also somewhat necessary, and I think that a saint who had the humility to pivot from "I don't believe any of you and I won't even believe him without a detailed forensic investigation" to "my Lord and my God" is a good intercessor even if they were not already under his particular care.
The push for a "uniform" Eucharistic liturgy in the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church stems from a decision made at the Synod of Bishops in 1999[1][2]. The synod unanimously agreed to implement a standardized way of celebrating the Holy Qurbana (Eucharistic liturgy) across the Syro-Malabar Church to promote unity and stability.
## Background
For years, there had been divisions within the Syro-Malabar Church over how the Mass should be celebrated[1]:
- Most parishes had the priest facing the faithful for the entire Mass (versus populum)
- Some dioceses had the priest facing the tabernacle (ad orientem) for the whole Mass
- Other parishes had a mixed approach, with the priest facing the people for parts and the tabernacle for other parts
## The 1999 Synod Decision
The 1999 Synod decided on a "uniform mode" as a compromise[1][4]:
- The priest faces the people during the introductory rites, Liturgy of the Word, and homily
- For the Liturgy of the Eucharist, the priest faces the tabernacle (ad orientem), with the people also facing that direction
- The priest again faces the people for the concluding rites after communion
This uniform mode was approved by the Congregation for Eastern Churches but faced resistance in some communities accustomed to the versus populum style[1][4].
## Calls for Implementation
Pope John Paul II initially supported the 1999 decision, seeing it as promoting ecclesial communion[2]. In 2021, Pope Francis urged prompt implementation of the uniform liturgy, saying it would increase "stability and ecclesial communion" in the Syro-Malabar Church[1][2].
The Synod of Bishops in 2021 set a timeline for all Syro-Malabar eparchies worldwide to adopt the uniform liturgy by late 2022[1]. However, there has been significant resistance, especially in the major Ernakulam-Angamaly Archeparchy[4].
So in summary, the push for liturgical uniformity arose from the 1999 Synod decision aimed at resolving divisions over liturgical orientation, though implementing this across the global Syro-Malabar Church has proven very controversial[1][2][4].
The "uniform" Eucharistic liturgy in the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church originates from a long process of liturgical standardization and reform that aimed to unify various local practices into a single, cohesive form of worship. Here are some key points about its origin:
1. **Historical Background**: The Syro-Malabar Church traces its origins to the evangelistic efforts of St. Thomas the Apostle in India. Over centuries, it developed its own liturgical traditions influenced by the East Syriac Rite, as well as local Indian customs.
2. **Latinization**: During the Portuguese colonial period (16th-18th centuries), there was a significant influence of Latin Catholic liturgical practices imposed on the Syro-Malabar Church, leading to a degree of Latinization in its liturgy.
3. **Efforts for Uniformity**: Throughout the 20th century, there were numerous efforts to restore and standardize the traditional East Syriac liturgy while removing excessive Latin influences. This movement gained momentum especially after the Second Vatican Council (1962-1965), which encouraged the restoration of Eastern Catholic liturgical traditions.
4. **Restoration and Standardization**: A major milestone was the promulgation of a revised and more uniform form of the Eucharistic liturgy in the 1960s and 1980s. This was overseen by a special commission and involved extensive consultation with liturgical experts and the broader church community.
5. **Official Approval**: The reformed and standardized liturgy received official approval from the Holy See, ensuring its implementation across all Syro-Malabar parishes. The process was completed in the 1980s, resulting in the "uniform" liturgy currently in use.
The aim of this process was to preserve the unique identity and heritage of the Syro-Malabar Church while ensuring unity and consistency in liturgical practice.
Don't take a hostage you aren't willing to shoot. That may be a problem the Vatican now has. They are saying "do this or face a schism" yet have not seem to have thought out what a schism would actually entail if 90% of the priests in the area refused compliance.
It appears there are increasing voices in the synod adopting the less insane approach of not creating a schism just to show you are in control. Hopefully they win out, yet I think even if the Synod made a choice, it would not be enough for rome to back down, as Francis has invested far too much of his authority in the issue.
You can't give a hecklers veto to the papal magisterium. Previous popes were smart and humble enough not to give an opportunity for said hecklers veto. We may learn the consequences of that shortly.
Do you think this will have any implications for how the TLM will be handled by Rome in the near future? Seems like the outcome of this will have big ramifications for the TLM crowd as well.
Not directly, but yeah, people are obviously going to be paying attention to what happens here with a certain interest beyond that region of India where the dispute runs hottest.
I don't expect fistfights or the burning of effigies or the like. A lot of American Catholics, for example, will simply march resolutely and (relatively) quietly into schism with the SSPX. But the damage will be done, nevertheless.
Yeah that's my expectation as well. If (and that's a big if at this point) more restrictions are placed on the TLM, then SSPX will likely see a huge influx of people.
So will the Eastern Catholics. That's what happened under the previous round of restrictions.
Everything I have read about this so far has shown that the Syro-Malabar priests have no intention of backing down, and that obviously appears to be what is happening. Did the Vatican really think they weren't going to get called on their bluff? Or maybe they aren't bluffing and really intend to excommunicate 90% of the priests involved?
It's entirely possible the Vatican thought they weren't going to be called on it. The previous ultimatum they issued, which was for the priests to celebrate the new uniform compromise liturgy on a particular day, the priests complied with. If they're not getting an accurate read in Italy regarding what people are thinking in India, via the two or three people going between both, they could come to virtually any conclusion.
I wonder if they could have gotten away with requiring every priest to offer at least one uniform compromise liturgy every Sunday, and the rest either entirely ad orientum or entirely ad populum or official compromise. Probably would have defeated the purpose though...
I commented in this months ago saying that they will not excommunicate all of the priests, and I still don't think they will do it. They would essentially be cutting loose an entire diocese over a liturgical quibble.
I actually think that Rome needs to follow through if they want to maintain their authority in the future, but I suspect they won't have the willpower to go through with their threat. If they blink here it sends a message to other parts of the world that if you complain and defy enough, you'll get your way. I just don't think Pope Francis wants the stain of a significant schism on his record and he will do whatever it takes to avoid it, even if it means giving in eventually. I have no investment in this dispute but if I were on the side of the protesters I would stand my ground.
The recent news that the TLM may be banned entirely gives this story even more intrigue. How Rome handles this may send a message for that eventuality.
"The recent news that the TLM may be banned entirely"
Oh no, what now?
I searched the web and found Rorate Caeli has a blog post with what they (with honesty) describe as "a rumor" from what they describe as credible sources, but the substance of the blog post is that people should offer prayer, sacrifice, and penance (I have no objection to prayer, sacrifice and penance, which I believe to be powerful and useful, but I would add that the enemy, which is the devil and not any human being, always desires us to be anxious about the future and always desires to destroy our peace and our trust in God and is frequently able to do this through rumors and contagious emotions. So I would add in particular, a peaceful resignation in advance to God's will whatever it may be *without* imagining in any way what the possibilities are; just a blank check made out to God.)
Yeah it was the Rorate Caeli post as Bridget said. They seem to be taking this as a real threat. They haven't been 100% accurate in the past about all of the TLM restrictions but they were posting pretty accurately about TC before it actually happened, so they clearly have some sources in Rome. It's still a rumor at this point but I find it believable, mainly because of Pope Francis' health being a big question lately and I can see those interested in stamping out the TLM trying to move quickly to get it done.
Rorate updated this morning on X that he was reporting on a document that was in draft by a person or persons who then intended to get the HF to sign it. That's pretty far from a sure thing.
> But in a novel act, a group of nine laymen turned copies of the letter into paper boats and released them on Vembanad Lake, India’s longest lake.
I watched the video (not comprehending the audio) and the part where they scoot the water along with their hands to make the boats move away since the water had no current would be Monty-Python-style funny if the entire matter were not deeply, deeply tragic. I will ask St Thomas to pray for everyone involved. All things are possible with God, but a willingness on our part to receive graces of humility and obedience (even a very little bit to allow him to get a foot in the door) is also somewhat necessary, and I think that a saint who had the humility to pivot from "I don't believe any of you and I won't even believe him without a detailed forensic investigation" to "my Lord and my God" is a good intercessor even if they were not already under his particular care.
What a deeply sad situation. I pray there will not be schism.
I wish the Vatican cared half as much about doctrinal issues as it seems to care about which way the priest faces during Mass.
For some people, the direction the celebrant faces during Mass *is* a doctrinal issue.
From Perplexity:
The push for a "uniform" Eucharistic liturgy in the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church stems from a decision made at the Synod of Bishops in 1999[1][2]. The synod unanimously agreed to implement a standardized way of celebrating the Holy Qurbana (Eucharistic liturgy) across the Syro-Malabar Church to promote unity and stability.
## Background
For years, there had been divisions within the Syro-Malabar Church over how the Mass should be celebrated[1]:
- Most parishes had the priest facing the faithful for the entire Mass (versus populum)
- Some dioceses had the priest facing the tabernacle (ad orientem) for the whole Mass
- Other parishes had a mixed approach, with the priest facing the people for parts and the tabernacle for other parts
## The 1999 Synod Decision
The 1999 Synod decided on a "uniform mode" as a compromise[1][4]:
- The priest faces the people during the introductory rites, Liturgy of the Word, and homily
- For the Liturgy of the Eucharist, the priest faces the tabernacle (ad orientem), with the people also facing that direction
- The priest again faces the people for the concluding rites after communion
This uniform mode was approved by the Congregation for Eastern Churches but faced resistance in some communities accustomed to the versus populum style[1][4].
## Calls for Implementation
Pope John Paul II initially supported the 1999 decision, seeing it as promoting ecclesial communion[2]. In 2021, Pope Francis urged prompt implementation of the uniform liturgy, saying it would increase "stability and ecclesial communion" in the Syro-Malabar Church[1][2].
The Synod of Bishops in 2021 set a timeline for all Syro-Malabar eparchies worldwide to adopt the uniform liturgy by late 2022[1]. However, there has been significant resistance, especially in the major Ernakulam-Angamaly Archeparchy[4].
So in summary, the push for liturgical uniformity arose from the 1999 Synod decision aimed at resolving divisions over liturgical orientation, though implementing this across the global Syro-Malabar Church has proven very controversial[1][2][4].
Citations:
[1] https://www.ncregister.com/cna/india-s-syro-malabar-catholic-church-to-adopt-uniform-liturgy
[2] https://www.ncregister.com/cna/pope-francis-urges-indian-catholics-to-commit-to-uniform-syro-malabar-liturgy
[3] https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/249817/syro-malabar-catholic-church-leaders-want-a-uniform-liturgy-why-are-they-facing-resistance
[4] https://www.pillarcatholic.com/p/why-are-syro-malabar-catholics-debating
[5] https://malankaralibrary.com/ImageUpload/8fc3bf30c82e02483ceb81230c1ab606.pdf
•
From ChatGPT:
The "uniform" Eucharistic liturgy in the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church originates from a long process of liturgical standardization and reform that aimed to unify various local practices into a single, cohesive form of worship. Here are some key points about its origin:
1. **Historical Background**: The Syro-Malabar Church traces its origins to the evangelistic efforts of St. Thomas the Apostle in India. Over centuries, it developed its own liturgical traditions influenced by the East Syriac Rite, as well as local Indian customs.
2. **Latinization**: During the Portuguese colonial period (16th-18th centuries), there was a significant influence of Latin Catholic liturgical practices imposed on the Syro-Malabar Church, leading to a degree of Latinization in its liturgy.
3. **Efforts for Uniformity**: Throughout the 20th century, there were numerous efforts to restore and standardize the traditional East Syriac liturgy while removing excessive Latin influences. This movement gained momentum especially after the Second Vatican Council (1962-1965), which encouraged the restoration of Eastern Catholic liturgical traditions.
4. **Restoration and Standardization**: A major milestone was the promulgation of a revised and more uniform form of the Eucharistic liturgy in the 1960s and 1980s. This was overseen by a special commission and involved extensive consultation with liturgical experts and the broader church community.
5. **Official Approval**: The reformed and standardized liturgy received official approval from the Holy See, ensuring its implementation across all Syro-Malabar parishes. The process was completed in the 1980s, resulting in the "uniform" liturgy currently in use.
The aim of this process was to preserve the unique identity and heritage of the Syro-Malabar Church while ensuring unity and consistency in liturgical practice.
A letter from 5 bishops
https://cruxnow.com/church-in-asia/2024/06/five-syro-malabar-bishops-question-threat-to-excommunicate-priests-who-defy-mass-change/