I don't think there was ever a hymn that sounded like disco. The hymns of that era really drew on the folk music of a decade earlier. If anything, a disco song would be more likely to feature prominent (non-ecclesiastical, to be sure) organ than prominent guitar.
A decade ago, Pope Francis exhorted young Catholics to "make a mess!" And I think most observers interpreted that as an invitation for young people to get involved in the life of the Church and shake up an increasingly moribund institution. But it seems that a fair number of the young Catholics who took the Holy Father up on his invitation have a significantly different vision of what they want in the Church than perhaps the pontiff thought they wanted. One great lesson on this is that Church happens as much from the bottom up as from the top down. You guys are right that in many ways, that what we're seeing actually is what many at Vatican II had in mind. The question in the near-term is when/if the hierarchy will begin to swim with the tide. Right now, though, many of the bishops still seem to see their role as "firemen" whose job it is to snuff out any sign of the "indietrismo" ("backwardness") against which the pope constantly rails.
Perhaps I am just a bad podcast listener but I, too, love the Pillar Podcast. Towards the end of my long winding journey to the church, culminating at the Easter vigil a year ago, I discovered the Pillar. The opportunity to listen in on the conversation of two really bright friends with long experience in the Church was an important support to me. Despite reporting on the failings of Her earthly members, your love for the Church shines through and continues to inspire me. Also, you've given me hat chat, Starting Seven, Russian mafia stories, and "do you want to play a game". Thanks to you both and please continue the bad podcasting.
I don't know if you guys are "good" at podcasting, but I do know that listening to your excellent Catholic conversations is always a highlight of my week!
I think the change in outlook on catechesis began with the publication of the Catechism of the Catholic Church in the early 1990s. Before that once the Baltimore Catechism was no longer used, there really wasn't any catechism that actually got what the Church teaches right.
I consider myself an extrovert but I also need my space after being around a lot of people. I have always thought of it as a need for balance between crowds, which I love, and thinking which can only be done alone.
Longtime podcast listener, and sporadic commenter...
These are the Catholic-related podcasts I listen to (or have listened to) regularly:
- First Things
- Bible in a Year
- Catechism in a Year
- Word on Fire (various podcasts from here)
- Pillar Podcast, plus the bonus
- Drinking with the Saints
A handful of my fave non-Catholic podcasts, that aren't work-related:
- Sumo Kaboom!
- Stuff You Missed in History Class
- Public Money Pod
- The PolicyViz Podcast
- Martini Shot, w Rob Long
The podcasts w/ a similar format y'all have -- the same two people discussing some topics, are Drinking with the Saints, Sumo Kaboom!, and Stuff You Missed in History Class -- are actually my favorite ones! (it doesn't hurt that they involve my fave hobbies - drinking, sumo, and the past).
Y'all podcast just fine. I like the quizzes, when you can throw them in. I like the bonus podcasts (esp the crazy stories). I like the watch trivia (in moderation). That keto brick commentary this week... wow, that's an anti-ad if I ever heard one.
But mainly, you have commentary and coverage I'm not seeing elsewhere, which is why I subscribed in the first place. I don't really need opinion, per se. I have opinion. Everybody has opinion. But I do want to hear some perspective, especially hearing information about what's going on globally in the Church.
Having lived through the 60s and on in the Latin-Rite Church, I would not have agreed with your analysis at the time although it makes some sense now. Yes, the "spirit of the age" was folk music so we had guitar masses, etc.. I believe there was a larger historical current related to the two world wars and the depression as well as the insistent presence of Marxism as "in" and the "anti-Vietnam war" movement. The hedonism of the 50s on and the extensions of "childhood". And so on.
Perhaps the times are always "just the 70s"? Perhaps the current generation will start to implement the Second Vatican Council; God know that the generation of the 70s and 80s didn't, What I know is that "love is a task" (to quote JPII) and following Jesus is hard and nothing else in my life is worth it.
Again, isn't this an American centric vision? Do you find many guitar masses in Ghana or the Phillipines for example? (Maybe you do! Would love to hear from someone with experience!) Every country is going to see it's local culture reflected to a degree in how they practice the faith. I don't think this is strange.
1)I pay attention to you guys because you actually understand the church & I don't have to worry about the complete misunderstandings(not to say lies) associated with Gell-Mann amnesia effect.
2) In the current polarized political environment I cannot but wonder if the AP piece is Caesar telegraphing to the world that he is about to start punching the church...
Hey - I don't know who the lady was who told you to just "stop doing your job", but I think you guys are awesome! Keep doing your job! And nothing against Matt Fradd - but I like your style and content better in general! (an Ob Gyn from Ohio)
You are so good at the interesting type of podcasting that I relished driving into and out of a traffic nightmare of a city precisely because it afforded me the opportunity to catch up on missed episodes *and* listen again to episodes I’ve already recently enjoyed. Never change.
Some more unsolicited thoughts from me: anyone who uses the term “boomer” as a pejorative ought to consider stopping and considering whether he is being a jerk. I am young enough to be considered “young” by Ed’s standards in this discussion and old enough to have been taught that “boomers” were the children of the Greatest Generation and that our elders are to be respected, even and especially in times of disagreement. Perhaps we would all also do well to remember that Father doesn’t exist to serve our personal liturgical preferences. If there is doctrinal error, let it be corrected. But if so much of this is fighting over whether we are properly worshiping God based on whether we have banners or communion rails or whatever, maybe we should recall that a priest is pastoring an entire parish, not just the young. His flock includes the woman whose hands might have spent many hours and personal resources on creating that banner, washing his vestments, and making sure the sanctuary is in order so his hands can bring us the grace of Jesus Christ while the rest of us are occupied with work and the raising of children. We have the option to enjoy and find edifying both “Eagles Wings”and Gregorian chant. I have the feeling that a great many of us would feel the real consequences of a lack of prayer from the older generation if they were no longer here to do the unseen physical and spiritual work that keeps things running.
I hear you on respect for older priests or older people in general. Respect is a lesson we all need to learn. There are of course some older priests who speak pretty derisively of the younger generations as well. What is more common, or at least more accepted - bashing on boomer priests or using the word "trad" as a pejorative? The answer to that question isn't all that important, but the point is we owe each other respect. I believe in the JD tack of trying to assume your interlocutor's good intentions is the best place to start - something I strive, and sometimes fail, to do.
However, I will note that I think you're falling into a pretty common trap. Liturgical differences can't be reduced to mere preferences. Are some things preferences? Sure, but that's not the norm. To take but one example Cardinal Ratzinger went to great lengths in his writing to demonstrate that ad orientem is the most proper priestly orientation - especially while offering the sacrifice. He didn't say this because he prefers it. He gave very clear theological and historical reasons for why it more properly expresses the reality and draws us into what is happening at Mass. See "Spirit of the Liturgy". Once you learn this stuff you can't unknow it.
Can we say things like this to our older priests who weren't formed to understand it? Sometimes yes sometimes no, but saying it isn't inherently disrespectful or demanding he meet my preferences. Your point about the priest not being there just for me is well taken. It's one of the primary reasons I left my territorial parish. I don't want to be a burden on a pastor who is doing his best trying to meet the needs of so many people. Yet...ad orientem (and many other things) call out to me.
Your points are also very well taken. Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I agree that “Trad” can also be used as a pejorative and also agree with you re: JD’s position. I also think Ed made a good point about is it the Church or was it the 70s and appreciated his example about the impossibility of the laity’s having the reasonable possibility of addressing matters of liturgy with a priest prior to Vatican II. I think ultimately my hope is that we will all be respectful of one another and patient with one another as we seek Truth together. There is so much division and divisiveness in Christendom without those of us who are supposed to be fully united gathering blocks to build fences.
"the cultural schtick of disco, ecclesiastically speaking"
I don't think there was ever a hymn that sounded like disco. The hymns of that era really drew on the folk music of a decade earlier. If anything, a disco song would be more likely to feature prominent (non-ecclesiastical, to be sure) organ than prominent guitar.
A decade ago, Pope Francis exhorted young Catholics to "make a mess!" And I think most observers interpreted that as an invitation for young people to get involved in the life of the Church and shake up an increasingly moribund institution. But it seems that a fair number of the young Catholics who took the Holy Father up on his invitation have a significantly different vision of what they want in the Church than perhaps the pontiff thought they wanted. One great lesson on this is that Church happens as much from the bottom up as from the top down. You guys are right that in many ways, that what we're seeing actually is what many at Vatican II had in mind. The question in the near-term is when/if the hierarchy will begin to swim with the tide. Right now, though, many of the bishops still seem to see their role as "firemen" whose job it is to snuff out any sign of the "indietrismo" ("backwardness") against which the pope constantly rails.
impressive re-purposing of a meme or keyword recently in the news.
I stopped my lawnmower to type this comment: If you guys aren’t good at podcasting, then I don’t want to listen to good podcasts. I love this podcast.
+1 for the lawnmower reference. I was dazed and confused mowing my lawn a couple weeks ago with no pillar podcast to turn to.
Perhaps I am just a bad podcast listener but I, too, love the Pillar Podcast. Towards the end of my long winding journey to the church, culminating at the Easter vigil a year ago, I discovered the Pillar. The opportunity to listen in on the conversation of two really bright friends with long experience in the Church was an important support to me. Despite reporting on the failings of Her earthly members, your love for the Church shines through and continues to inspire me. Also, you've given me hat chat, Starting Seven, Russian mafia stories, and "do you want to play a game". Thanks to you both and please continue the bad podcasting.
I'm a bit confused, when I played control pitch, we had a player that would field the pitcher position, do they not do that now?
I don't know if you guys are "good" at podcasting, but I do know that listening to your excellent Catholic conversations is always a highlight of my week!
I only listen to a few other podcasts but I like yours. Don't change what you are doing. Thank you.
I think the change in outlook on catechesis began with the publication of the Catechism of the Catholic Church in the early 1990s. Before that once the Baltimore Catechism was no longer used, there really wasn't any catechism that actually got what the Church teaches right.
Best analysis of the post-conciliar Church I’ve ever heard. Thank you guys for what you do.
I consider myself an extrovert but I also need my space after being around a lot of people. I have always thought of it as a need for balance between crowds, which I love, and thinking which can only be done alone.
Longtime podcast listener, and sporadic commenter...
These are the Catholic-related podcasts I listen to (or have listened to) regularly:
- First Things
- Bible in a Year
- Catechism in a Year
- Word on Fire (various podcasts from here)
- Pillar Podcast, plus the bonus
- Drinking with the Saints
A handful of my fave non-Catholic podcasts, that aren't work-related:
- Sumo Kaboom!
- Stuff You Missed in History Class
- Public Money Pod
- The PolicyViz Podcast
- Martini Shot, w Rob Long
The podcasts w/ a similar format y'all have -- the same two people discussing some topics, are Drinking with the Saints, Sumo Kaboom!, and Stuff You Missed in History Class -- are actually my favorite ones! (it doesn't hurt that they involve my fave hobbies - drinking, sumo, and the past).
Y'all podcast just fine. I like the quizzes, when you can throw them in. I like the bonus podcasts (esp the crazy stories). I like the watch trivia (in moderation). That keto brick commentary this week... wow, that's an anti-ad if I ever heard one.
But mainly, you have commentary and coverage I'm not seeing elsewhere, which is why I subscribed in the first place. I don't really need opinion, per se. I have opinion. Everybody has opinion. But I do want to hear some perspective, especially hearing information about what's going on globally in the Church.
Having lived through the 60s and on in the Latin-Rite Church, I would not have agreed with your analysis at the time although it makes some sense now. Yes, the "spirit of the age" was folk music so we had guitar masses, etc.. I believe there was a larger historical current related to the two world wars and the depression as well as the insistent presence of Marxism as "in" and the "anti-Vietnam war" movement. The hedonism of the 50s on and the extensions of "childhood". And so on.
Perhaps the times are always "just the 70s"? Perhaps the current generation will start to implement the Second Vatican Council; God know that the generation of the 70s and 80s didn't, What I know is that "love is a task" (to quote JPII) and following Jesus is hard and nothing else in my life is worth it.
Again, isn't this an American centric vision? Do you find many guitar masses in Ghana or the Phillipines for example? (Maybe you do! Would love to hear from someone with experience!) Every country is going to see it's local culture reflected to a degree in how they practice the faith. I don't think this is strange.
1)I pay attention to you guys because you actually understand the church & I don't have to worry about the complete misunderstandings(not to say lies) associated with Gell-Mann amnesia effect.
2) In the current polarized political environment I cannot but wonder if the AP piece is Caesar telegraphing to the world that he is about to start punching the church...
Hey - I don't know who the lady was who told you to just "stop doing your job", but I think you guys are awesome! Keep doing your job! And nothing against Matt Fradd - but I like your style and content better in general! (an Ob Gyn from Ohio)
You are so good at the interesting type of podcasting that I relished driving into and out of a traffic nightmare of a city precisely because it afforded me the opportunity to catch up on missed episodes *and* listen again to episodes I’ve already recently enjoyed. Never change.
Some more unsolicited thoughts from me: anyone who uses the term “boomer” as a pejorative ought to consider stopping and considering whether he is being a jerk. I am young enough to be considered “young” by Ed’s standards in this discussion and old enough to have been taught that “boomers” were the children of the Greatest Generation and that our elders are to be respected, even and especially in times of disagreement. Perhaps we would all also do well to remember that Father doesn’t exist to serve our personal liturgical preferences. If there is doctrinal error, let it be corrected. But if so much of this is fighting over whether we are properly worshiping God based on whether we have banners or communion rails or whatever, maybe we should recall that a priest is pastoring an entire parish, not just the young. His flock includes the woman whose hands might have spent many hours and personal resources on creating that banner, washing his vestments, and making sure the sanctuary is in order so his hands can bring us the grace of Jesus Christ while the rest of us are occupied with work and the raising of children. We have the option to enjoy and find edifying both “Eagles Wings”and Gregorian chant. I have the feeling that a great many of us would feel the real consequences of a lack of prayer from the older generation if they were no longer here to do the unseen physical and spiritual work that keeps things running.
Wonderful comment!
I hear you on respect for older priests or older people in general. Respect is a lesson we all need to learn. There are of course some older priests who speak pretty derisively of the younger generations as well. What is more common, or at least more accepted - bashing on boomer priests or using the word "trad" as a pejorative? The answer to that question isn't all that important, but the point is we owe each other respect. I believe in the JD tack of trying to assume your interlocutor's good intentions is the best place to start - something I strive, and sometimes fail, to do.
However, I will note that I think you're falling into a pretty common trap. Liturgical differences can't be reduced to mere preferences. Are some things preferences? Sure, but that's not the norm. To take but one example Cardinal Ratzinger went to great lengths in his writing to demonstrate that ad orientem is the most proper priestly orientation - especially while offering the sacrifice. He didn't say this because he prefers it. He gave very clear theological and historical reasons for why it more properly expresses the reality and draws us into what is happening at Mass. See "Spirit of the Liturgy". Once you learn this stuff you can't unknow it.
Can we say things like this to our older priests who weren't formed to understand it? Sometimes yes sometimes no, but saying it isn't inherently disrespectful or demanding he meet my preferences. Your point about the priest not being there just for me is well taken. It's one of the primary reasons I left my territorial parish. I don't want to be a burden on a pastor who is doing his best trying to meet the needs of so many people. Yet...ad orientem (and many other things) call out to me.
Your points are also very well taken. Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I agree that “Trad” can also be used as a pejorative and also agree with you re: JD’s position. I also think Ed made a good point about is it the Church or was it the 70s and appreciated his example about the impossibility of the laity’s having the reasonable possibility of addressing matters of liturgy with a priest prior to Vatican II. I think ultimately my hope is that we will all be respectful of one another and patient with one another as we seek Truth together. There is so much division and divisiveness in Christendom without those of us who are supposed to be fully united gathering blocks to build fences.