I think it also needs to be realized is the DC archdioceseis a pretty conservative presbyterate, and it gets more right leaning as you go from pastors to associate pastors.
McElroy should probably not count on flowers and friendship. Which just adds to the chaos
I think it also needs to be realized is the DC archdioceseis a pretty conservative presbyterate, and it gets more right leaning as you go from pastors to associate pastors.
McElroy should probably not count on flowers and friendship. Which just adds to the chaos
Back during the last go round when Gregory eventually got the tap, I had a DC seminarian friend who flat out said, "If it's McElroy, I'm leaving." Which was a bit extreme, but did capture the general attitude of the DC guys I knew. McElroy will likely find himself living out in microcosm what Francis has experienced as Pope: an isolated leader abandoned and ignored by a church that has passed him by and who kicks against the goad in frustrated futility for a few more years.
We have a good number of conservative priests in Washington, and while some are rigid, the greater portion has learned how to pastorally serve a laity that does not share their conservativism. I think the same skill will be how these priests relate to the new Archbishop.
Who said anything about disobedience? Instead, we're likely to find obedience.... and only obedience. He will be obeyed, but never respected, never loved, never defended, never rallied to, etc.
This is something you guys really don't understand when it comes to leadership. If you rely on ruling by decree and expecting obedience, you will find your ability to lead severely curtailed and compromised. Effective leadership requires trust. Its very hard to gain trust as an outsider, which McElroy is. he has no roots to DC, and he might as well be from another planet in terms of how the priests of that diocese think and live.
Good men of great skill can overcome this. McElroy is not a good man, nor is he particularly skilled.
Again, that's what you guys don't get. We're speaking about the reality of a difficult situation, and rather than learn from it, we're accused of judging him. McElroy has been a back bencher the majority of his life. What major causes has he influenced? Which allies has he won over? What has he done of consequence in his diocese, other than provoking weird fights like when he decided to fight homeschoolers?
One can pray he listen to the spirit and be a successful administrator, while also acknowledging reality and the great difficulties he is likely to face, and the high costs of failure. Indeed, to neglect them is to make them a self-fulfilling prophecy.
In his own diocese, Bishop McElroy held synods in both 2016 and 2019 on the family and young adults respectively (following the pattern of the Synods of Bishops in Rome). More diocesan synods are a good thing in general, and I think that these at least show good initiative and receptivity by the cardinal.
Nobody I know is judging his soul. WeтАЩre rightly concerned by his previous actions and statements of teaching being repeated here. Words and actions as a precedent for future behavior is not irrational or uncharitable.
But everyone I know is praying for a different than previous outcome ЁЯЩГ
Mike, one is called to the priesthood generally to a specific place or work. The call is then affirmed through the seminary journey ultimately by the bishop or religious superior via their representatives. I like to think that the laity have some sort of consultative input. For this seminarian to set limits this call due to a valid appointment does not augur well for his vocation or to the people whom is called to serve.
He was a good guy just blowing off some steam. And at some point, the character of a bishop has to be a valid point of discernment. I wouldn't think much of a man who looked at a bishop like Alois Hudal, who helped Nazi war criminals escape justice via the ratlines, and said, "That's the sort of man to whom I want to pledge obedience."
The point is, an episcopal appointment that results in a browbeaten, demoralized presbyterate is going to be antithetical to a flourishing local Church, and a pope who neglects to account for that is not only going to see poor results: he's going to be guilty of serious mismanagement of the Church of God.
To a point, but it is possible to reach a breaking point where everyone just starts ignoring the leader. They can continue to double down all they want, but it turns into a screaming into the void. It happened with Boniface VIII, when the response to Unam sanctam was basically for everyone to ignore it. And it has happened to Francis a few times.
It seems mixed, but admittedly IтАЩm speaking from anecdotal evidence. Of course D.C. proper is not as orthodox, but there are many very devout, orthodox Catholics in the areas of northern Virginia within the archdiocese. Some incredible parishes, donтАЩt you think?
Edit: Northern Virginia is apparently in the diocese of Arlington, so my citing those parishes isnтАЩt good evidence.
Orthodoxy consists in handing on the entire deposit of faith by prioritizing worship at the sacrifice of the Holy Mass from which all other good fruits flow, and apart from which nothing has grace & power. JesusтАЩ sacrifice, His triumph over sin and death, our need for salvation, etc., are central to the deposit of faith/Catholic teaching. From the kerygmatic teaching of JesusтАЩ Passion and death for us which offers us salvation, we can complete JesusтАЩ call to love and serve our neighbors, the poor, the marginalized, sick, and the sick. Apart from that, we can do nothing.
By тАЬnot as orthodox,тАЭ IтАЩm referring to the often well-meaning but misguided attempt to put the human person above all else in oneтАЩs practice of the faith. ItтАЩs a wrongly ordered orientation toward saving one another rather than relying on JesusтАЩ grace and salvation, and oftentimes (but not always) it leads to public support for unorthodox positions on issues like marriage, gender, abortion, and sin itself. Not to paint with too broad a brush, but this is commonly found in cities, which is why I said, тАЬof course D.C. proper is not as orthodox.тАЭ
It is mixed. Plenty of folks of all colors and ethnicities and income levels in the city and MD counties are orthodox devout folks. PLENTY. IтАЩm not sure where KurtтАЩs comments are coming from as someone who grew up here (1986-2001 ) and lived here as an adult (2015-present) and lemme tell you itтАЩs a whollllle different world than elementary and high school years lol. Honestly itтАЩs a lovely diocese from the ground up. WeтАЩre still working on the penthouse level however ЁЯлаЁЯлаЁЯлаЁЯла
My wife and I went to St. James in Falls Church for the year that we lived in the area and found it quite orthodox. We didn't get very engaged in the parish, unfortunately, mostly due to the expectation that we would move after a year (which we did), but there were quite a few activities.
Odds are good you're going to find a good parish regardless of where you land. Basilica of St. Mary in Old Town Alexandria, St. Rita in Alexandria (hosts a Latin Mass, if that's your jam), St. Charles Borromeo in the Clarendon neighborhood of Arlington. MS mentions attending St. James, and that's a massive and diverse parish, but it's led by Fr. Paul Scalia, who is simply excellent. I've been to a couple parishes for a single Mass or wedding in the Great Falls area and found them wanting, however. I suppose it's all a matter of what you're looking for.
Check out St. John the Beloved if you'll land in the McLean area. Great orthodox priests and people and, in spite of the unfortunate "church in the round" architecture, they do the Mass in a beautifully sacred way. At least, that's how it was some 10 years ago when I lived there.
There are other good options--it's a good diocese.
I can't say enough good things about The Cathedral of St. Thomas More, Kevin. I've been a parishioner here for more than 30 years, and it is orthodox. thriving, and ethnically diverse. Plus, the school is excellent. In honor of its 50th anniversary last year, it has been transformed from a 1970s brick box to a magnificent Gothic/Tudor structure that is both intimate and transcendant. Come see!
Arlington is a spectacular diocese. I can only think of one church that has felt тАЬunorthodoxтАЭ - the actual churches arenтАЩt particularly beautiful, generally speaking, but the priests are fantastic. Hard to go wrong.
As a Midwest transplant, I feel like itтАЩs such a relief to not worry about which Mass will have the least ad-libbing from the altar haha.
Kurt IтАЩm not sure where you live or what parish youтАЩre in. But I know MANY orthodox laity besides myself. Like a boat ton. Across numerous parishes and counties of our diocese. SoтАж. Yea. The priests donтАЩt come from a vacuum.
But also one that is not anywhere near his progressivism. And he likely is not able to mobilize the laity against their priests in some struggle, and even if he could, it would likely finish off his episcopate the second he tried. (Besides, in todays polarized world with social media, he would likely be just drawing in other actors into such a fight that he does not need.)
Tough world for anyone to crack. Much less for a foreigner to the diocese, who will have the taint of "you're here because nobody else wanted the job" from day one.
We have parishes in DC (mine) where a majority of the members are on TPS. We have parishes where a majority of members of the Ladies' Sodality remember when they could not go to the parish school and had to receive communion after certain others. We have parishes that exist in deeply impoverished neighborhoods. These folks valued the ministry of Cardinal Gregory and will have warm feeling towards Cardinal McElroy.
But most importantly, while we do have priests who would be viewed and would view themselves as conservative, they are not jerks. Two pastors who celebrate the old Latin Mass also have liturgical dance in their parishes. The new Oratory parish is warm and welcoming to major Democratic Party officials who are active parishioners. The conservative priests rarely lecture on politics and have been kind and pastoral to federal employees worried about being 'Schedule F' ed. And, while I worry about rising costs with the clergy dental plan, they have marvelously held their tongue and grit their teeth as their parishes engaged in some cultural practices that might be seen as 'irregular'.
I think it also needs to be realized is the DC archdioceseis a pretty conservative presbyterate, and it gets more right leaning as you go from pastors to associate pastors.
McElroy should probably not count on flowers and friendship. Which just adds to the chaos
I think this is the point. He keeps trying to rein us in.
Back during the last go round when Gregory eventually got the tap, I had a DC seminarian friend who flat out said, "If it's McElroy, I'm leaving." Which was a bit extreme, but did capture the general attitude of the DC guys I knew. McElroy will likely find himself living out in microcosm what Francis has experienced as Pope: an isolated leader abandoned and ignored by a church that has passed him by and who kicks against the goad in frustrated futility for a few more years.
We have a good number of conservative priests in Washington, and while some are rigid, the greater portion has learned how to pastorally serve a laity that does not share their conservativism. I think the same skill will be how these priests relate to the new Archbishop.
So obedience to oneтАЩs bishop no longer matters? We settle on a church of Frank PavoneтАЩs?
Who said anything about disobedience? Instead, we're likely to find obedience.... and only obedience. He will be obeyed, but never respected, never loved, never defended, never rallied to, etc.
This is something you guys really don't understand when it comes to leadership. If you rely on ruling by decree and expecting obedience, you will find your ability to lead severely curtailed and compromised. Effective leadership requires trust. Its very hard to gain trust as an outsider, which McElroy is. he has no roots to DC, and he might as well be from another planet in terms of how the priests of that diocese think and live.
Good men of great skill can overcome this. McElroy is not a good man, nor is he particularly skilled.
IтАЩm glad that youтАЩre helping the Holy Spirit judge these guys. IтАЩll pray for his success.
Again, that's what you guys don't get. We're speaking about the reality of a difficult situation, and rather than learn from it, we're accused of judging him. McElroy has been a back bencher the majority of his life. What major causes has he influenced? Which allies has he won over? What has he done of consequence in his diocese, other than provoking weird fights like when he decided to fight homeschoolers?
One can pray he listen to the spirit and be a successful administrator, while also acknowledging reality and the great difficulties he is likely to face, and the high costs of failure. Indeed, to neglect them is to make them a self-fulfilling prophecy.
In his own diocese, Bishop McElroy held synods in both 2016 and 2019 on the family and young adults respectively (following the pattern of the Synods of Bishops in Rome). More diocesan synods are a good thing in general, and I think that these at least show good initiative and receptivity by the cardinal.
Nobody I know is judging his soul. WeтАЩre rightly concerned by his previous actions and statements of teaching being repeated here. Words and actions as a precedent for future behavior is not irrational or uncharitable.
But everyone I know is praying for a different than previous outcome ЁЯЩГ
Mike, one is called to the priesthood generally to a specific place or work. The call is then affirmed through the seminary journey ultimately by the bishop or religious superior via their representatives. I like to think that the laity have some sort of consultative input. For this seminarian to set limits this call due to a valid appointment does not augur well for his vocation or to the people whom is called to serve.
He was a good guy just blowing off some steam. And at some point, the character of a bishop has to be a valid point of discernment. I wouldn't think much of a man who looked at a bishop like Alois Hudal, who helped Nazi war criminals escape justice via the ratlines, and said, "That's the sort of man to whom I want to pledge obedience."
The point is, an episcopal appointment that results in a browbeaten, demoralized presbyterate is going to be antithetical to a flourishing local Church, and a pope who neglects to account for that is not only going to see poor results: he's going to be guilty of serious mismanagement of the Church of God.
Even despised leaders are still in power and likely to double down on the things for which they became despised.
To a point, but it is possible to reach a breaking point where everyone just starts ignoring the leader. They can continue to double down all they want, but it turns into a screaming into the void. It happened with Boniface VIII, when the response to Unam sanctam was basically for everyone to ignore it. And it has happened to Francis a few times.
Hey, it's the synodal way!
Yes, a right leaning presbyterate with a laity that is not conservative.
It seems mixed, but admittedly IтАЩm speaking from anecdotal evidence. Of course D.C. proper is not as orthodox, but there are many very devout, orthodox Catholics in the areas of northern Virginia within the archdiocese. Some incredible parishes, donтАЩt you think?
Edit: Northern Virginia is apparently in the diocese of Arlington, so my citing those parishes isnтАЩt good evidence.
"Of course D.C. proper is not as orthodox..."
Yes, the Church in DC is mostly racial and ethnic minorities, if that is what you were hinting at.
Race and ethnicity have nothing to do with my comment, and you know that.
No, I don't know that.
Kurt is running hot today! Cool your jets, man.
Orthodoxy consists in handing on the entire deposit of faith by prioritizing worship at the sacrifice of the Holy Mass from which all other good fruits flow, and apart from which nothing has grace & power. JesusтАЩ sacrifice, His triumph over sin and death, our need for salvation, etc., are central to the deposit of faith/Catholic teaching. From the kerygmatic teaching of JesusтАЩ Passion and death for us which offers us salvation, we can complete JesusтАЩ call to love and serve our neighbors, the poor, the marginalized, sick, and the sick. Apart from that, we can do nothing.
By тАЬnot as orthodox,тАЭ IтАЩm referring to the often well-meaning but misguided attempt to put the human person above all else in oneтАЩs practice of the faith. ItтАЩs a wrongly ordered orientation toward saving one another rather than relying on JesusтАЩ grace and salvation, and oftentimes (but not always) it leads to public support for unorthodox positions on issues like marriage, gender, abortion, and sin itself. Not to paint with too broad a brush, but this is commonly found in cities, which is why I said, тАЬof course D.C. proper is not as orthodox.тАЭ
It is pretty clear what brush you are painting with.
For shame, man
The Archdiocese of Washington is only DC proper and five counties of southern Maryland. Northern Virginia is the Diocese of Arlington.
Ah, my mistake then. Thanks, Father!
It is mixed. Plenty of folks of all colors and ethnicities and income levels in the city and MD counties are orthodox devout folks. PLENTY. IтАЩm not sure where KurtтАЩs comments are coming from as someone who grew up here (1986-2001 ) and lived here as an adult (2015-present) and lemme tell you itтАЩs a whollllle different world than elementary and high school years lol. Honestly itтАЩs a lovely diocese from the ground up. WeтАЩre still working on the penthouse level however ЁЯлаЁЯлаЁЯлаЁЯла
I am likely moving to this area this year and am hoping to find a more Orthodox parish in Northern VA, can you recommend any?
My wife and I went to St. James in Falls Church for the year that we lived in the area and found it quite orthodox. We didn't get very engaged in the parish, unfortunately, mostly due to the expectation that we would move after a year (which we did), but there were quite a few activities.
Thank you!
Odds are good you're going to find a good parish regardless of where you land. Basilica of St. Mary in Old Town Alexandria, St. Rita in Alexandria (hosts a Latin Mass, if that's your jam), St. Charles Borromeo in the Clarendon neighborhood of Arlington. MS mentions attending St. James, and that's a massive and diverse parish, but it's led by Fr. Paul Scalia, who is simply excellent. I've been to a couple parishes for a single Mass or wedding in the Great Falls area and found them wanting, however. I suppose it's all a matter of what you're looking for.
Thank you!
We were parishioners for a few years at St. Ambrose in Annandale; Fr. Fisher is an excellent pastor and very sound. ItтАЩs a great parish.
Thank you!
Check out St. John the Beloved if you'll land in the McLean area. Great orthodox priests and people and, in spite of the unfortunate "church in the round" architecture, they do the Mass in a beautifully sacred way. At least, that's how it was some 10 years ago when I lived there.
There are other good options--it's a good diocese.
Thank you!
I can't say enough good things about The Cathedral of St. Thomas More, Kevin. I've been a parishioner here for more than 30 years, and it is orthodox. thriving, and ethnically diverse. Plus, the school is excellent. In honor of its 50th anniversary last year, it has been transformed from a 1970s brick box to a magnificent Gothic/Tudor structure that is both intimate and transcendant. Come see!
Thank you!
Arlington is a spectacular diocese. I can only think of one church that has felt тАЬunorthodoxтАЭ - the actual churches arenтАЩt particularly beautiful, generally speaking, but the priests are fantastic. Hard to go wrong.
As a Midwest transplant, I feel like itтАЩs such a relief to not worry about which Mass will have the least ad-libbing from the altar haha.
Kurt IтАЩm not sure where you live or what parish youтАЩre in. But I know MANY orthodox laity besides myself. Like a boat ton. Across numerous parishes and counties of our diocese. SoтАж. Yea. The priests donтАЩt come from a vacuum.
But also one that is not anywhere near his progressivism. And he likely is not able to mobilize the laity against their priests in some struggle, and even if he could, it would likely finish off his episcopate the second he tried. (Besides, in todays polarized world with social media, he would likely be just drawing in other actors into such a fight that he does not need.)
Tough world for anyone to crack. Much less for a foreigner to the diocese, who will have the taint of "you're here because nobody else wanted the job" from day one.
We have parishes in DC (mine) where a majority of the members are on TPS. We have parishes where a majority of members of the Ladies' Sodality remember when they could not go to the parish school and had to receive communion after certain others. We have parishes that exist in deeply impoverished neighborhoods. These folks valued the ministry of Cardinal Gregory and will have warm feeling towards Cardinal McElroy.
But most importantly, while we do have priests who would be viewed and would view themselves as conservative, they are not jerks. Two pastors who celebrate the old Latin Mass also have liturgical dance in their parishes. The new Oratory parish is warm and welcoming to major Democratic Party officials who are active parishioners. The conservative priests rarely lecture on politics and have been kind and pastoral to federal employees worried about being 'Schedule F' ed. And, while I worry about rising costs with the clergy dental plan, they have marvelously held their tongue and grit their teeth as their parishes engaged in some cultural practices that might be seen as 'irregular'.