I will ask St. Therese of Lisieux to pray for Archbishop Vigano's repentance; she prayed for Hyacinthe Loyson to repent, seems like this would be in her wheelhouse.
While I was thinking of it yesterday, I asked her to pray also for that bishop who attempted marriage and had a stroke, although I did not think at the time that it was urgent. But I guess it was.
This doesnтАЩt make them тАЬtraddiesтАЭ. Vigano is not traditional in any way. He is more loved by Trumpists and the Church Militant crowd than anyone else.
Your post is a bit insulting and not an accurate representation of people who attend the TLM.
<<In their Aug. 18 statement, the nuns said they have also made some liturgical changes at their monastery.
тАЬIn order to better render glory to God and тАЬmore profoundly to enter into the contemplation of His Sacred Mysteries,тАЭ the nuns said they have decided тАЬto celebrate the Sacred Liturgy, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, the Divine Office, the sacraments, sacramentals and other rites according to the older forms of the Roman rite according to the traditional Discalced Carmelite usages.тАЭ>>
but yes, Vigano is a traditionalist. you don't get to exclude him from that identifier just because you don't like him. there is a significant overlap between traditionalists and support for Trump, and Church Militant is also a semi-traditionalist group- its opposition to some other traditionalist groups does not change that.
Still, I would not consider Vigano a traditionalist. As far as I know he has only even celebrated the TLM a handful of times and seemed to start doing so only as recently as 2020.
Sure, there is some overlap as there is usually overlap between many groups in an organization as big as the universal church.
I can assure you Vigano and Church Militant are not popular in any TLM circle of which IтАЩve ever been a part.
I would ask you to consider that your original tone is still not charitable calling them тАЬtraddiesтАЭ as an insult and lumping that group in with Vigano as if we all love Vigano.
In my view, тАЬTraddiesтАЭ represent a certain flavor of traditionally-minded individual. Certainly not all who attend TLM. Personally I would describe the term as describing someone more willing to trust their own informed-by-tradition concept of Catholicism over the current Church hierarchyтАЩs. They may even be right in their critiqueтАж but they need to remain obedient. Obedience is a deeper tradition of the Church even than the traditions they hold most dear. тАЬChrist was obedient unto death, even death on a Cross. Therefore God highly
exalted HimтАжтАЭ Perhaps forgetting that ChristтАЩs obedience ended in His death, however, traddies seem to be justifying themselves as тАЬmartyrsтАЭ for resisting the guidance of their тАШmodernistтАЩ but legitimate Church leadership. And, yes, Vigano is very much a тАЬtraddieтАЭ
in this sense. Perhaps look up Taylor Marshall on YouTube to get up to speed.
Brendan, I'm glad to hear how you approach the matters separating traditionalism from these problematic figures. Yet, I have to say you are probably the only one I've ever seen doing that. Not that my experience is vast and broad, but from where I sit, being a traditionalist embraces all the weirdness this thread mentions.. Would that it would not be so.
May I ask to what extent that experience is online vs in person?
I have been going almost exclusively to the TLM for years. IтАЩve certainly met my fair share of nutty people and the types of traditionalists Jen and Joseph are talking about. But they are a minority in my experience.
IтАЩve also met my fair share of Novus Ordo Catholics that use contraception and think two men should be able to marry. The issue I have with JosephтАЩs comment is he uses the term тАЬtraddyтАЭ to make us тАЬotherтАЭ and lumps us all together. We ought to acknowledge that within different тАЬgroupsтАЭ of the church there are different issues and levels of heterodoxy. I donтАЩt think itтАЩs accurate or fair to paint traditionalists as the biggest problem, and Joseph seems to constantly do that.
Vigano in his screed on the Russian invasion of Ukraine, he called Moscow the Second Rome and basically the screed was lifted from the esoterist Dugin. Some schismatic cultic religious houses follow him, but they're nothing of note.
A Christian who mostly rejects the authority of the pope or local bishop is a "schismatic". A Christian who completely rejects their authority is a "separated brother in Christ". Hard to get to worked up about these things, tbh.
so the nuns are traddies now, under Archbishop Vigano's mitre. nice, definitely not schismatic in any way
I will ask St. Therese of Lisieux to pray for Archbishop Vigano's repentance; she prayed for Hyacinthe Loyson to repent, seems like this would be in her wheelhouse.
While I was thinking of it yesterday, I asked her to pray also for that bishop who attempted marriage and had a stroke, although I did not think at the time that it was urgent. But I guess it was.
This doesnтАЩt make them тАЬtraddiesтАЭ. Vigano is not traditional in any way. He is more loved by Trumpists and the Church Militant crowd than anyone else.
Your post is a bit insulting and not an accurate representation of people who attend the TLM.
sounds like you missed this part of the article:
<<In their Aug. 18 statement, the nuns said they have also made some liturgical changes at their monastery.
тАЬIn order to better render glory to God and тАЬmore profoundly to enter into the contemplation of His Sacred Mysteries,тАЭ the nuns said they have decided тАЬto celebrate the Sacred Liturgy, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, the Divine Office, the sacraments, sacramentals and other rites according to the older forms of the Roman rite according to the traditional Discalced Carmelite usages.тАЭ>>
but yes, Vigano is a traditionalist. you don't get to exclude him from that identifier just because you don't like him. there is a significant overlap between traditionalists and support for Trump, and Church Militant is also a semi-traditionalist group- its opposition to some other traditionalist groups does not change that.
I did miss that part, I apologize.
Still, I would not consider Vigano a traditionalist. As far as I know he has only even celebrated the TLM a handful of times and seemed to start doing so only as recently as 2020.
Sure, there is some overlap as there is usually overlap between many groups in an organization as big as the universal church.
I can assure you Vigano and Church Militant are not popular in any TLM circle of which IтАЩve ever been a part.
I would ask you to consider that your original tone is still not charitable calling them тАЬtraddiesтАЭ as an insult and lumping that group in with Vigano as if we all love Vigano.
In my view, тАЬTraddiesтАЭ represent a certain flavor of traditionally-minded individual. Certainly not all who attend TLM. Personally I would describe the term as describing someone more willing to trust their own informed-by-tradition concept of Catholicism over the current Church hierarchyтАЩs. They may even be right in their critiqueтАж but they need to remain obedient. Obedience is a deeper tradition of the Church even than the traditions they hold most dear. тАЬChrist was obedient unto death, even death on a Cross. Therefore God highly
exalted HimтАжтАЭ Perhaps forgetting that ChristтАЩs obedience ended in His death, however, traddies seem to be justifying themselves as тАЬmartyrsтАЭ for resisting the guidance of their тАШmodernistтАЩ but legitimate Church leadership. And, yes, Vigano is very much a тАЬtraddieтАЭ
in this sense. Perhaps look up Taylor Marshall on YouTube to get up to speed.
Oh IтАЩm well familiar with Taylor Marshall and his nonsense.
I donтАЩt care for the term, but maybe itтАЩs just me.
Brendan, I'm glad to hear how you approach the matters separating traditionalism from these problematic figures. Yet, I have to say you are probably the only one I've ever seen doing that. Not that my experience is vast and broad, but from where I sit, being a traditionalist embraces all the weirdness this thread mentions.. Would that it would not be so.
May I ask to what extent that experience is online vs in person?
I have been going almost exclusively to the TLM for years. IтАЩve certainly met my fair share of nutty people and the types of traditionalists Jen and Joseph are talking about. But they are a minority in my experience.
IтАЩve also met my fair share of Novus Ordo Catholics that use contraception and think two men should be able to marry. The issue I have with JosephтАЩs comment is he uses the term тАЬtraddyтАЭ to make us тАЬotherтАЭ and lumps us all together. We ought to acknowledge that within different тАЬgroupsтАЭ of the church there are different issues and levels of heterodoxy. I donтАЩt think itтАЩs accurate or fair to paint traditionalists as the biggest problem, and Joseph seems to constantly do that.
They are a minority, but they sure seem to like to hop on YouTube and make videos / blast messagesтАж
Obedience is better than sacrifice 1 Sam 15:22
Vigano in his screed on the Russian invasion of Ukraine, he called Moscow the Second Rome and basically the screed was lifted from the esoterist Dugin. Some schismatic cultic religious houses follow him, but they're nothing of note.
This was definitely a strange development.
A Christian who mostly rejects the authority of the pope or local bishop is a "schismatic". A Christian who completely rejects their authority is a "separated brother in Christ". Hard to get to worked up about these things, tbh.
we are all schismatics. just some of us are stupider schismatics than others
New Mass traddies. I suppose it's a contextual, situational schism brought on by their relationship with their bishop.