As a card carrying member of the Millennial generation, I don’t trust that my cohort truly knows what good liturgy is. I perceive that the youths’ love for the TLM is reactionary, and idealistic. It is a reaction to “Boomer” Masses. It is like a Marxist wish to belong to the oppressed class. TLM lovers appear to bide their time till a li…
As a card carrying member of the Millennial generation, I don’t trust that my cohort truly knows what good liturgy is. I perceive that the youths’ love for the TLM is reactionary, and idealistic. It is a reaction to “Boomer” Masses. It is like a Marxist wish to belong to the oppressed class. TLM lovers appear to bide their time till a liturgical revolt. This is too blunt of a response, which is equal and opposite to the out-of-touch Boomer Bishops clamping down on the TLM. A subtle and historically grounded Liturgical Reform is needed. I believe the 1964 missal holds the key to a Eucharistic and liturgical renaissance.
I think you are correct, but I see in the desire for the TLM a perfectly valid desire for something solid that they can rely on. Once you have something solid you can build on it, and the conciliar Church has left young Catholics so little to build on. The TLM won't fix your problems, Jesus will fix your problems, but I am convinced that the way to a fruitful liturgical reform is through the TLM, not over it.
My fellow trads have strong opinions on the 64 missal, but I think it is the best alternative to the TLM. Ironically, a priest of the Archdiocese of Washington, Msgr. Pope wrote excellent blog about the 64 missal. It was my first exposure to the immediate post-V2 liturgy, and I’ve come strongly believe that missal embodies the true vision of liturgical reform that the council father’s envisioned.
Sure! Here it is. After I read this I ended up purchasing on old 65 missal. Quite interesting to read through and see the slight changes from the 62 missal. I remember thinking, “I wish I could find an indult mass for this just to see it in person.”
Msgr. Pope also admitted that the interest in the former Mass order had peaked and had become, in his words, "boutique" Catholicism. People make assertions about interest in the old Mass, but it had been static for some time in DC.
I think in part you are correct. One additional appeal that matters to a lot of practicing millenials is that at a TLM parish now, you know that everyone there actually cares and many of them are making substantial sacrifices to show up. That doesn't make them right about everything, but when the mainstream culture is so ridiculously toxic and you're trying to raise your kids (or find a spouse, or a real friend) it's a relief to be with a group of like minded people, and unfortunately not everyone can guarantee that at your local parish.
Some years ago I attended a "young adult listening session" for my diocese. Many people there asked about not just TLM but lots of traditional devotions and practices and attracting people with a distinctive Catholic identity that we weren't ashamed of. After I guess one too many questions about this, the (yes, Boomer-aged) permanent deacon who clearly didn't want to be there talking to us whippersnappers went on a rant about how awesome drums are at Mass, but if that wasn't good enough for us, there's the one permitted TLM in the diocese. Since then it's at least tripled in regular attendance. (We were regulars for a while too.)
They're tone deaf and apparently getting deafer. Or just more afraid of what happens after they're gone.
It’s funny how these Boomers call young adult listening sessions together, and then are shocked to learn that they themselves are no longer young adults.
I suppose it's within your prerogative to be cynical about the hearts of TLM loving youth, but it's always so offensive when people say these kinds of things.
I love the TLM, and I love my wife, and I do so as positive actions. I'm moved by their beauty and other merits. They have a lot to offer. It's not the alienation of boomer Masses that causes me to love the TLM anymore than it's the fear of being alone that makes me love my wife. There's a lot to love. If you can't see it, that's okay, but I really suggest that unless you're willing to tell a friend of yours, whose wife is not particularly interesting to you, that he probably only thinks he loves her because he "doesn't know what a good woman is", that his affection is just a reaction to the fear of dying alone, you should probably refrain from making such speculations about your cohorts who love the TLM.
I hoped to critique both extremes of liturgical views, unfortunately, with a few words and not much nuance; forgive me for crassness.
The TLM ought to be loved on its own merits, but so also the Ordinary Form. I believe it is toxic to love to TLM and distain the OF, and to take on a sectarian attitude. I am suspicious of those who uncritically look down on the OF and with haughtiness exalt the TLM, and I base this judgment from real encounters with people, not mere virtual encounters. I am weary of young adults, whose parents only knew the OF, who take on strong liturgical opinions without discerning reflection, nor knowing history, and have a resentment for being deprived of the TLM.
The apparent discontinuity ought to be reconciled in the hearts and minds of Catholics. I have found benefit from a strong Hermeneutic of Continuity, understanding Church history, sacramental theology, and ecclesiology. As mentioned above, I agree that a Reform of the OF comes through the TLM, not around it. This is why I love both the Ordinary and Extraordinary forms of the Roman Rite.
Crassness forgiven, I appreciate you understanding what I'm saying too. It irritated me when Pope Francis said similar things about attachment to the TLM, and it persists as an annoying thing to hear whenever it's repeated.
I agree with your other statements. TC seems to have only furthered the divide and fostered a growing "remnant" mentality in the short term. In the long run, we'll see what happens, but the continued existence(and growth?) of sedevacantism should serve as a sign that such a heavy handed approach won't produce the supposed intended effects.
There are young adults (and older ones) who resent being deprived of the TLM, who need to learn about forgiveness and circumspection.
But I don't think looking down on the 2002 missale romanum is nearly as big an abuse of the NO, as the people who minister at it (whether priest or lay) without regard for the rubrics or texts. To reform the NO, start cleaving to what it is, and liberally applying Sacrosanctum Concilium. No reference to the TLM required thus far.
I've heard this objection before, and it feels a bit like someone who routinely and badly abuses a close family member, becoming furious when an out-of-state cousin is rude to that family member.
I would respectfully recommend you attend mass at a place like Old Saint Mary's in Cincinnati Ohio. I've never been in a more participatory mass where the faithful sing the hymns with conviction and gusto. 18 sisters worshiped in the first few rows. Several young priests were available for mass. The whole place was crawling with children, yet there was silence and reverence for the consecration. After mass, people hung around for an hour to visit and eat together. The parish has its own crisis pregnancy center. I was just visiting on a trip for my grad school advisers retirement, but as a Novus Ordo attender I was blown away. Show me any mass in America that has such signs of life. I've heard St. John Cantius in Chicago is similar. Where I'm from, the TLM community is harshly persecuted, and even good Novus Ordo priests like mine live in fear of their bishop.
As a card carrying member of the Millennial generation, I don’t trust that my cohort truly knows what good liturgy is. I perceive that the youths’ love for the TLM is reactionary, and idealistic. It is a reaction to “Boomer” Masses. It is like a Marxist wish to belong to the oppressed class. TLM lovers appear to bide their time till a liturgical revolt. This is too blunt of a response, which is equal and opposite to the out-of-touch Boomer Bishops clamping down on the TLM. A subtle and historically grounded Liturgical Reform is needed. I believe the 1964 missal holds the key to a Eucharistic and liturgical renaissance.
I think you are correct, but I see in the desire for the TLM a perfectly valid desire for something solid that they can rely on. Once you have something solid you can build on it, and the conciliar Church has left young Catholics so little to build on. The TLM won't fix your problems, Jesus will fix your problems, but I am convinced that the way to a fruitful liturgical reform is through the TLM, not over it.
My fellow trads have strong opinions on the 64 missal, but I think it is the best alternative to the TLM. Ironically, a priest of the Archdiocese of Washington, Msgr. Pope wrote excellent blog about the 64 missal. It was my first exposure to the immediate post-V2 liturgy, and I’ve come strongly believe that missal embodies the true vision of liturgical reform that the council father’s envisioned.
Would you please provide a link to Msgr. Pope's article?
Sure! Here it is. After I read this I ended up purchasing on old 65 missal. Quite interesting to read through and see the slight changes from the 62 missal. I remember thinking, “I wish I could find an indult mass for this just to see it in person.”
https://blog.adw.org/2015/01/a-look-at-the-actual-mass-of-vatican-ii-the-1965-missal/
Msgr. Pope also admitted that the interest in the former Mass order had peaked and had become, in his words, "boutique" Catholicism. People make assertions about interest in the old Mass, but it had been static for some time in DC.
Agreed
I think in part you are correct. One additional appeal that matters to a lot of practicing millenials is that at a TLM parish now, you know that everyone there actually cares and many of them are making substantial sacrifices to show up. That doesn't make them right about everything, but when the mainstream culture is so ridiculously toxic and you're trying to raise your kids (or find a spouse, or a real friend) it's a relief to be with a group of like minded people, and unfortunately not everyone can guarantee that at your local parish.
Some years ago I attended a "young adult listening session" for my diocese. Many people there asked about not just TLM but lots of traditional devotions and practices and attracting people with a distinctive Catholic identity that we weren't ashamed of. After I guess one too many questions about this, the (yes, Boomer-aged) permanent deacon who clearly didn't want to be there talking to us whippersnappers went on a rant about how awesome drums are at Mass, but if that wasn't good enough for us, there's the one permitted TLM in the diocese. Since then it's at least tripled in regular attendance. (We were regulars for a while too.)
They're tone deaf and apparently getting deafer. Or just more afraid of what happens after they're gone.
It’s funny how these Boomers call young adult listening sessions together, and then are shocked to learn that they themselves are no longer young adults.
Yes to everything above.
Yet that is not the case in the Archdiocese of Washington.
I suppose it's within your prerogative to be cynical about the hearts of TLM loving youth, but it's always so offensive when people say these kinds of things.
I love the TLM, and I love my wife, and I do so as positive actions. I'm moved by their beauty and other merits. They have a lot to offer. It's not the alienation of boomer Masses that causes me to love the TLM anymore than it's the fear of being alone that makes me love my wife. There's a lot to love. If you can't see it, that's okay, but I really suggest that unless you're willing to tell a friend of yours, whose wife is not particularly interesting to you, that he probably only thinks he loves her because he "doesn't know what a good woman is", that his affection is just a reaction to the fear of dying alone, you should probably refrain from making such speculations about your cohorts who love the TLM.
I hoped to critique both extremes of liturgical views, unfortunately, with a few words and not much nuance; forgive me for crassness.
The TLM ought to be loved on its own merits, but so also the Ordinary Form. I believe it is toxic to love to TLM and distain the OF, and to take on a sectarian attitude. I am suspicious of those who uncritically look down on the OF and with haughtiness exalt the TLM, and I base this judgment from real encounters with people, not mere virtual encounters. I am weary of young adults, whose parents only knew the OF, who take on strong liturgical opinions without discerning reflection, nor knowing history, and have a resentment for being deprived of the TLM.
The apparent discontinuity ought to be reconciled in the hearts and minds of Catholics. I have found benefit from a strong Hermeneutic of Continuity, understanding Church history, sacramental theology, and ecclesiology. As mentioned above, I agree that a Reform of the OF comes through the TLM, not around it. This is why I love both the Ordinary and Extraordinary forms of the Roman Rite.
Crassness forgiven, I appreciate you understanding what I'm saying too. It irritated me when Pope Francis said similar things about attachment to the TLM, and it persists as an annoying thing to hear whenever it's repeated.
I agree with your other statements. TC seems to have only furthered the divide and fostered a growing "remnant" mentality in the short term. In the long run, we'll see what happens, but the continued existence(and growth?) of sedevacantism should serve as a sign that such a heavy handed approach won't produce the supposed intended effects.
There are young adults (and older ones) who resent being deprived of the TLM, who need to learn about forgiveness and circumspection.
But I don't think looking down on the 2002 missale romanum is nearly as big an abuse of the NO, as the people who minister at it (whether priest or lay) without regard for the rubrics or texts. To reform the NO, start cleaving to what it is, and liberally applying Sacrosanctum Concilium. No reference to the TLM required thus far.
I've heard this objection before, and it feels a bit like someone who routinely and badly abuses a close family member, becoming furious when an out-of-state cousin is rude to that family member.
I would respectfully recommend you attend mass at a place like Old Saint Mary's in Cincinnati Ohio. I've never been in a more participatory mass where the faithful sing the hymns with conviction and gusto. 18 sisters worshiped in the first few rows. Several young priests were available for mass. The whole place was crawling with children, yet there was silence and reverence for the consecration. After mass, people hung around for an hour to visit and eat together. The parish has its own crisis pregnancy center. I was just visiting on a trip for my grad school advisers retirement, but as a Novus Ordo attender I was blown away. Show me any mass in America that has such signs of life. I've heard St. John Cantius in Chicago is similar. Where I'm from, the TLM community is harshly persecuted, and even good Novus Ordo priests like mine live in fear of their bishop.