Does the Pope ever have a kind or favorable word about priests and seminarians? He says nice things about different initiatives (New Ways Ministry) but priests and seminarians he condemns (frills and hats).
Yes he really seems to hate us. And not just old style Mass goers. He seems to hate U. S. Citizens in general and faithful U.S. Catholics with a vengeance.
Celcilio, please be a little more charitable when reading and responding to comments. Erin said that the Pontiff "seems to hate" us in the US. This can be born out through examination of various policies enacted, off the cuff statements, and the words/actions of those Pope Francis surrounds himself with. The Pope is human. He can be thin-skinned, petty, and prone to anger just like every one of us fellow sinners who call him the Vicar of Christ.
Children can be hated by their father. The father should still be loved, obeyed, and prayed for. This is what we are called to do. I love Pope Francis, I pray for him, and I obey him when I am called to do so through the Magisterial teaching of the Church. I do not return "possible" hate in kind, I do not strike back when stricken. But saying that children should not speak up when being unfairly castigated and abused hurts the entire family.
Erin, I agree with you. Pope Francis's suppression of the Latin Mass is obviously motivated by his personal disdain for it and resentment of Orthodox Catholics who dare to question his morally ambiguous teachings. Meanwhile he essentially does nothing to the German Bishops who openly flaunt their refusal to support traditional catholic teachings on sexuality. Basically he only seemx to care if he's undermined, not the Institution of the Church and its teachings. He's been a terrible Pope but we should continue to pray for him to see the light regarding the damage he's causing and hope that he changes course.
Francis has only himself to blame, Daniel, for the German bishops' in-your-face disobedience. He's the one who, at the outset of his papacy, urged his minions to "Make a mess!" The Germans took him at his word (as have, unfortunately but not surprisingly, so many others of their ilk). The problem for Francis -- and now for all of us -- is that his own words came back to bite him: the Germans took the ball he gave them and ran even harder to the left with it, placing the Church in de facto (but thank God not yet de jure) schism. He unleashed the whirlwind, in his relentless efforts to make the Church over into his own image and likeness and to insure that the damage continues at the hands of his cronies when he's gone. Yes, pray for him indeed -- but not for his intentions.
Is "spar" the best word here? I mean I'm also tired of the Nuncio's constant tut-tutting of the Bishops, but I feel like the bishops themselves are constantly fighting against the notion that they are as a whole at odds with the Holy See.
Since the beginning of the synod a few years ago, I've heard from about 300 Catholics (and some former Catholics). About 80% have a phenomenal, positive, and fulfilling experience in the American Catholic Church. About 15-20% have horror stories. I've heard some (reported but unverified) shocking and jaw-dropping things. But it's important to recognize all of the incredible good. Our Church in the USA has it's strengths, and is generally a very generous place. It's also important to acknowledge there are groups of people stomping on one another and feeding violent words at wholes of groups.
I do appreciate Archbishop Broglio's encouragement and thanks for Priests and Seminarians. I trust his gratitude a lot more than vague criticisms of the local Church.
Synodality didn’t start with Francis or Brazil bishops. Synods of bishops are part of our Church history. What has changed with this papacy and what this pope has brought to the table has been confusion of Church teaching, criticism of young priests, and a dislike of the United States Catholics, clergy and laity alike. This papacy has brought division not clarity.
I suspect that all the failed Marxist theologians hate the US for the same reason, Capitalism does more for the common good than command economics ever do or can. Envy makes failures bitter.
We have had synodality for 3 years now, it has produced bupkis. You would have to be soft in the head to think that it is the answer to empty seminaries.
Has it really? It strikes me as like when someone lets of a massive noisy fart and you immediately think the stink is going to be unbearable, but suddenly you realise that it has no odor at all. Nothing. It's not even smelly.
We've had parish councils for as long as I can remember (like, people my age had babysitters in childhood while our mothers went to a parish council meeting or a finance committee) and if they are not synodal then I honestly don't know what is, like what does the word mean if it doesn't mean women (and men) telling clergy what to do and then the clergy deciding whether to do it.
I treasure your comments, I think you are a fount of common sense and I shall pray to St Margaret Clitherow that she may intercede for you. And for my mother who also went to parish council meetings.
But seriously, has a parish council ever achieved anything, ever?
I share your suspicion of local parish bureaucracies, but, on the contrary, my parish council was instrumental in discerning and launching a prayer ministry after Masses. What first began as a small offering is now evangelizing the parish as more and more people are healed and encouraged by the Lord at events beyond just the weekend Masses. It has been a beautiful fruit of pastor and parishioner unity. One reason is that before every parish council meeting, we spend 20 minutes in serious prayer!
The parish council is at the service of the pastor. It accomplishes much just by the laypeople being present to the priest knowing we are there to support him in what ever he needs us to do or what he wants help with, advice, etc. I say this as a parish council member myself. The temptation is to make its value based on what we have done or not done but it is far more than that.
Probably a little too harsh. It's important for priests to have a mechanism to get the input of his flock. This is healthy, and I have personal experience of what happens when a priest doesn't think this is important. It's bad for him and the parish.
That being said expectations should be severely tempered. There will be no great renewal in the Church due to "synodality" just as there isn't some grand renewal in a parish due to a parish council. It's just a normal part of everyday life.
Clearly, if we're in the situation we're in, it's because my way hasn't been taken seriously enough. If everyone just listened to me and only [insert trad/lib/political wishlist here], everything would surely be perfect.
Sarcasm off
I wonder if maybe God is allowing this generally dark time for the Church for His own good reasons and we're spending too much time trying to fix it and too little time trying to accept it, if that makes any sense to say.
After 7 years in the US, having moved here from France, any enthusiasm I had about being Catholic is gone. I used to be so proud of my faith. Now, all I can say is, “To whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.”
Could you say more about what you mean? Do you feel that way because of the difference between American and French Catholic cultures? Because of general trends in the church or in the world that would be the same regardless of your moving? Because of strife between the pope's favored voices and the institutional mainline of the church in America? I'd like to hear more
Thanks for asking. I think it’s a combination of things. I am the mother of a big family; my husband and I are both teachers. We tend to be very involved at Church, we’re music and liturgy nerds and tend to be religiously conservative but not political. We really, really struggled to find community and Catholic friendship here. We didn’t really belong in the Latin Mass community, and we didn’t find anything at the parishes, aside from adult religious education we both already had. Now, we’re in CL, which helps, but it’s kind of an Italian bubble, which just reinforces our feeling about the US. Also, we had lots of friends who were priests and religious in France. Aside from the Italians, we just wouldn’t want to socialize with the priests here. We don’t invite priests over to dinner anymore—too many bad experiences (inappropriate, rude, etc).
Thanks for expanding. I'm with you as someone who is religiously mostly quite conservative (even a little traddy) but not very conservative in the way that term has come to be used in this country (i.e. I am very far from being a Trump Republican). As a recent convert I've been blessed with a wonderful (though tiny, I'm in Utah) Newman center community, but I do worry about finding Catholic community after I graduate and move on (likely to be a teacher myself, in fact). I grew up in a high church Anglican parish that does Christian community really well (intentional small groups, study groups with a high level of institutional rigor) and I do think that many US Catholic parishes fall far below that. I don't know why it is. The habit of moving pastors every 6 years might be part of it, but probably more acutely in a diocese like mine with a priest shortage and a lot of foreign priests.
I have thought about this a lot. Compared to France, the seminaries in the US are incredibly insular—closer to the French military boarding school system than to French seminaries, which tend to integrate future clergy, general students, and lay catechists. The only people who teach at American seminaries are either priests, or former seminarians who became lay theologians. They are all part of the clerical and clericalist system. It is closed to outsiders. Therefore, when priests become pastors, they continue to be closed to any kind of initiative from the laypeople, including community building ones. They see formation and transmission of the faith as a one-way street. In France, it is a two-way street. I think this may be what Cdl Pierre means by a synodal Church, where there is cooperation between the priests and laity. In this country, this is perceived as Protestant or left-wing.
I think it may be mostly a problem here, but our seminary serves our entire Western region, so it’s still significant. We are a large Archdiocese, very influential, and held up as a model for evangelization by conservatives.
My foreign pastor is one of the best I've ever had. The result is that the parish is growing by leaps and bounds. I do think it would be better if priests weren't moved unless they seriously offended their parishioners, but in my brother's diocese they can have two six year terms in the same parish. They can also request and receive a transfer. The Holy Cross priests (CSC), who attend classes with Notre Dame students as seminarians, generally have 9 year assignments.
I also made the mistake of taking a job as DRE in a parish. It was a horrible experience. The lay people and deacons were great, the priests were … abusive!
I'm sorry you have had such bad experiences. Perhaps you have lived in a lot of places in the US, but anyway, for what it's worth, things aren't the same everywhere in the US. My parish has quite a lot of life and a lot of community. I teach at a university where there are a good number of seminarians, and they are pretty integrated into the larger university. Also, the seminary leaders actually do listen to us lay faculty.
That’s great. I’m in a large Western diocese whose seminary serves the entire region. We’re often held
up as a model, by conservatives, for evangelization. The reality on the ground is different. For as many individuals as we convert, I would guess we probably drive ten families away. All my neighbors are ex-Catholics whose parents practiced the faith.
Sad tale - truly. American Catholics (those living in an intentional way) are largely undergoing a great migration where people are sorting themselves into sub cultures and either driving considerable distances or moving close to like minded communities. I'm not saying this is necessarily a good thing or that it is a universal phenomenon, but it is a common reality.
I spent a lot of years unhappy with a couple local parishes I lived near. I finally decided to jump on the bandwagon out of necessity of my own faith and a desire for my kids to be Catholic in 20 years. It was the best decision I ever made. American Catholicism is extremely diverse, but you have to be willing to work to find the right communities.
The problem is Aparecida is a bad example since that Synod did nothing to stop the decline of Catholicism in Latin America. Mexico and Paraguay are the only Latin American countries where Catholicism still dominates and Brazil, where Aparecida is located, does not even have a Catholic majority anymore. There is a problem though when the last unanimous major decision the U.S. bishops made was to shut down churches and deprive Catholis of all sacraments, including confessiin and the anointing of the sick in Lent and Easter of 2020 because of a disease which proved to be less dangerous than the shutdown it triggered. The shutdown occurred even before any government mandates and many states never even mandated the closure of churches, but the bishops cowardly did. In Poland churches remained open and the Chuech defied the government. So I don't have sympathy with the American bishops who continue to act cowardly, especially when in some dioceses like my Diocese of Joliet many parish priests still refuse to give Communion on the tongue, despite that being the proper way to receive Communion in the universal Church and despite the fact that the hand has many more germs than the tongue. But what Cardinal Pierre wants would actually make things even worse.
Our parish still had Confession. It may have also had Anointing of the Sick. I don't know because I didn't need it. Father, a different, American, priest, also kept the Church unlocked from 9 to 5 so we could still make visits.
While I don’t let it get to me, as a seminarian it is certainly frustrating when the only time we seem to be mentioned by certain portions of the hierarchy is to stereotype us, “the young priests today dream about wearing the cassock and celebrating Mass in the traditional way.”
I certainly wouldn't trust anything that comes from "American Magazine." As the saying goes, I wouldn't even line my bird cage with thas magazine. It is wonderful that we have The Pillar to give us the true story. I would have to speculate that for the most part Rome doesn't understand Americans nor the Church in America.
Does the Pope ever have a kind or favorable word about priests and seminarians? He says nice things about different initiatives (New Ways Ministry) but priests and seminarians he condemns (frills and hats).
Yes he really seems to hate us. And not just old style Mass goers. He seems to hate U. S. Citizens in general and faithful U.S. Catholics with a vengeance.
You sound like the maga type who accuses the democrats of hating America. Only God knows a persons heart where hate resides. Stop playing God.
Celcilio, please be a little more charitable when reading and responding to comments. Erin said that the Pontiff "seems to hate" us in the US. This can be born out through examination of various policies enacted, off the cuff statements, and the words/actions of those Pope Francis surrounds himself with. The Pope is human. He can be thin-skinned, petty, and prone to anger just like every one of us fellow sinners who call him the Vicar of Christ.
Children can be hated by their father. The father should still be loved, obeyed, and prayed for. This is what we are called to do. I love Pope Francis, I pray for him, and I obey him when I am called to do so through the Magisterial teaching of the Church. I do not return "possible" hate in kind, I do not strike back when stricken. But saying that children should not speak up when being unfairly castigated and abused hurts the entire family.
>"Only God knows a person's heart"
>"You sound like one of those maga types - stop playing God"
lmao it never gets old.
Erin, I agree with you. Pope Francis's suppression of the Latin Mass is obviously motivated by his personal disdain for it and resentment of Orthodox Catholics who dare to question his morally ambiguous teachings. Meanwhile he essentially does nothing to the German Bishops who openly flaunt their refusal to support traditional catholic teachings on sexuality. Basically he only seemx to care if he's undermined, not the Institution of the Church and its teachings. He's been a terrible Pope but we should continue to pray for him to see the light regarding the damage he's causing and hope that he changes course.
Francis has only himself to blame, Daniel, for the German bishops' in-your-face disobedience. He's the one who, at the outset of his papacy, urged his minions to "Make a mess!" The Germans took him at his word (as have, unfortunately but not surprisingly, so many others of their ilk). The problem for Francis -- and now for all of us -- is that his own words came back to bite him: the Germans took the ball he gave them and ran even harder to the left with it, placing the Church in de facto (but thank God not yet de jure) schism. He unleashed the whirlwind, in his relentless efforts to make the Church over into his own image and likeness and to insure that the damage continues at the hands of his cronies when he's gone. Yes, pray for him indeed -- but not for his intentions.
I think his intention for this month is for himself, so please pray for his intentions.
Or, Bernie, "a kind or favorable word to say about" its young, faithful, orthodox priests?
Is "spar" the best word here? I mean I'm also tired of the Nuncio's constant tut-tutting of the Bishops, but I feel like the bishops themselves are constantly fighting against the notion that they are as a whole at odds with the Holy See.
Since the beginning of the synod a few years ago, I've heard from about 300 Catholics (and some former Catholics). About 80% have a phenomenal, positive, and fulfilling experience in the American Catholic Church. About 15-20% have horror stories. I've heard some (reported but unverified) shocking and jaw-dropping things. But it's important to recognize all of the incredible good. Our Church in the USA has it's strengths, and is generally a very generous place. It's also important to acknowledge there are groups of people stomping on one another and feeding violent words at wholes of groups.
I do appreciate Archbishop Broglio's encouragement and thanks for Priests and Seminarians. I trust his gratitude a lot more than vague criticisms of the local Church.
Synodality didn’t start with Francis or Brazil bishops. Synods of bishops are part of our Church history. What has changed with this papacy and what this pope has brought to the table has been confusion of Church teaching, criticism of young priests, and a dislike of the United States Catholics, clergy and laity alike. This papacy has brought division not clarity.
The worst part is Pierre probably didn't mean any of that.
That interview was for an audience of one, to tell his boss what he wanted to hear: the people he doesn't like are ignorant backwater hicks
Now he's gone and made himself actual enemies for doing his job a bit too zealously
“‘He’s open to his opinion and I’m open to mine,’ he said.”
Yikes!
Mons Broglio is perhaps not this century's Ronald Knox or Fulton Sheen, ahem.
That was such a weird quote. Seems like he must have misspoken.
I suspect that all the failed Marxist theologians hate the US for the same reason, Capitalism does more for the common good than command economics ever do or can. Envy makes failures bitter.
We have had synodality for 3 years now, it has produced bupkis. You would have to be soft in the head to think that it is the answer to empty seminaries.
Has it really? It strikes me as like when someone lets of a massive noisy fart and you immediately think the stink is going to be unbearable, but suddenly you realise that it has no odor at all. Nothing. It's not even smelly.
We've had parish councils for as long as I can remember (like, people my age had babysitters in childhood while our mothers went to a parish council meeting or a finance committee) and if they are not synodal then I honestly don't know what is, like what does the word mean if it doesn't mean women (and men) telling clergy what to do and then the clergy deciding whether to do it.
Bridget.
I treasure your comments, I think you are a fount of common sense and I shall pray to St Margaret Clitherow that she may intercede for you. And for my mother who also went to parish council meetings.
But seriously, has a parish council ever achieved anything, ever?
Probably not, and that's exactly what we want for the synod on synodality 🤞 (I wonder if I can paste a "fingers crossed for luck" emoji)
I share your suspicion of local parish bureaucracies, but, on the contrary, my parish council was instrumental in discerning and launching a prayer ministry after Masses. What first began as a small offering is now evangelizing the parish as more and more people are healed and encouraged by the Lord at events beyond just the weekend Masses. It has been a beautiful fruit of pastor and parishioner unity. One reason is that before every parish council meeting, we spend 20 minutes in serious prayer!
The parish council is at the service of the pastor. It accomplishes much just by the laypeople being present to the priest knowing we are there to support him in what ever he needs us to do or what he wants help with, advice, etc. I say this as a parish council member myself. The temptation is to make its value based on what we have done or not done but it is far more than that.
Probably a little too harsh. It's important for priests to have a mechanism to get the input of his flock. This is healthy, and I have personal experience of what happens when a priest doesn't think this is important. It's bad for him and the parish.
That being said expectations should be severely tempered. There will be no great renewal in the Church due to "synodality" just as there isn't some grand renewal in a parish due to a parish council. It's just a normal part of everyday life.
Sarcasm on
Clearly, if we're in the situation we're in, it's because my way hasn't been taken seriously enough. If everyone just listened to me and only [insert trad/lib/political wishlist here], everything would surely be perfect.
Sarcasm off
I wonder if maybe God is allowing this generally dark time for the Church for His own good reasons and we're spending too much time trying to fix it and too little time trying to accept it, if that makes any sense to say.
After 7 years in the US, having moved here from France, any enthusiasm I had about being Catholic is gone. I used to be so proud of my faith. Now, all I can say is, “To whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.”
I wish I could give this comment a standing ovation
Amen!!
Could you say more about what you mean? Do you feel that way because of the difference between American and French Catholic cultures? Because of general trends in the church or in the world that would be the same regardless of your moving? Because of strife between the pope's favored voices and the institutional mainline of the church in America? I'd like to hear more
Thanks for asking. I think it’s a combination of things. I am the mother of a big family; my husband and I are both teachers. We tend to be very involved at Church, we’re music and liturgy nerds and tend to be religiously conservative but not political. We really, really struggled to find community and Catholic friendship here. We didn’t really belong in the Latin Mass community, and we didn’t find anything at the parishes, aside from adult religious education we both already had. Now, we’re in CL, which helps, but it’s kind of an Italian bubble, which just reinforces our feeling about the US. Also, we had lots of friends who were priests and religious in France. Aside from the Italians, we just wouldn’t want to socialize with the priests here. We don’t invite priests over to dinner anymore—too many bad experiences (inappropriate, rude, etc).
Thanks for expanding. I'm with you as someone who is religiously mostly quite conservative (even a little traddy) but not very conservative in the way that term has come to be used in this country (i.e. I am very far from being a Trump Republican). As a recent convert I've been blessed with a wonderful (though tiny, I'm in Utah) Newman center community, but I do worry about finding Catholic community after I graduate and move on (likely to be a teacher myself, in fact). I grew up in a high church Anglican parish that does Christian community really well (intentional small groups, study groups with a high level of institutional rigor) and I do think that many US Catholic parishes fall far below that. I don't know why it is. The habit of moving pastors every 6 years might be part of it, but probably more acutely in a diocese like mine with a priest shortage and a lot of foreign priests.
I have thought about this a lot. Compared to France, the seminaries in the US are incredibly insular—closer to the French military boarding school system than to French seminaries, which tend to integrate future clergy, general students, and lay catechists. The only people who teach at American seminaries are either priests, or former seminarians who became lay theologians. They are all part of the clerical and clericalist system. It is closed to outsiders. Therefore, when priests become pastors, they continue to be closed to any kind of initiative from the laypeople, including community building ones. They see formation and transmission of the faith as a one-way street. In France, it is a two-way street. I think this may be what Cdl Pierre means by a synodal Church, where there is cooperation between the priests and laity. In this country, this is perceived as Protestant or left-wing.
I think it may be mostly a problem here, but our seminary serves our entire Western region, so it’s still significant. We are a large Archdiocese, very influential, and held up as a model for evangelization by conservatives.
I agree with James, most of the seminaries I know have lay teachers that include women.
Check out Sacred Heart Seminary in Detroit.
My foreign pastor is one of the best I've ever had. The result is that the parish is growing by leaps and bounds. I do think it would be better if priests weren't moved unless they seriously offended their parishioners, but in my brother's diocese they can have two six year terms in the same parish. They can also request and receive a transfer. The Holy Cross priests (CSC), who attend classes with Notre Dame students as seminarians, generally have 9 year assignments.
I also made the mistake of taking a job as DRE in a parish. It was a horrible experience. The lay people and deacons were great, the priests were … abusive!
I'm sorry you have had such bad experiences. Perhaps you have lived in a lot of places in the US, but anyway, for what it's worth, things aren't the same everywhere in the US. My parish has quite a lot of life and a lot of community. I teach at a university where there are a good number of seminarians, and they are pretty integrated into the larger university. Also, the seminary leaders actually do listen to us lay faculty.
That’s great. I’m in a large Western diocese whose seminary serves the entire region. We’re often held
up as a model, by conservatives, for evangelization. The reality on the ground is different. For as many individuals as we convert, I would guess we probably drive ten families away. All my neighbors are ex-Catholics whose parents practiced the faith.
Sad tale - truly. American Catholics (those living in an intentional way) are largely undergoing a great migration where people are sorting themselves into sub cultures and either driving considerable distances or moving close to like minded communities. I'm not saying this is necessarily a good thing or that it is a universal phenomenon, but it is a common reality.
I spent a lot of years unhappy with a couple local parishes I lived near. I finally decided to jump on the bandwagon out of necessity of my own faith and a desire for my kids to be Catholic in 20 years. It was the best decision I ever made. American Catholicism is extremely diverse, but you have to be willing to work to find the right communities.
How has no one brought up lay trusteeism when we talk about synodality and the Catholic Church in America? We have a long history of lay leadership in governance, even against the pope's orders: https://www.encyclopedia.com/religion/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/trusteeism#:~:text=In%20U.S.%20Catholic%20history%2C%20trusteeism,to%20choose%20and%20dismiss%20pastors.
Actually, lay trusteeism is fairly rare historically in the United States, whereas it was how things were done in Europe in the Middle Ages.
The Archbishop is a man of the institution. The Cardinal is a man of the people. Big difference.
I have read the first sentence of this a number of times, and the best I can come up with is that it should say "says" instead of "ways."
The problem is Aparecida is a bad example since that Synod did nothing to stop the decline of Catholicism in Latin America. Mexico and Paraguay are the only Latin American countries where Catholicism still dominates and Brazil, where Aparecida is located, does not even have a Catholic majority anymore. There is a problem though when the last unanimous major decision the U.S. bishops made was to shut down churches and deprive Catholis of all sacraments, including confessiin and the anointing of the sick in Lent and Easter of 2020 because of a disease which proved to be less dangerous than the shutdown it triggered. The shutdown occurred even before any government mandates and many states never even mandated the closure of churches, but the bishops cowardly did. In Poland churches remained open and the Chuech defied the government. So I don't have sympathy with the American bishops who continue to act cowardly, especially when in some dioceses like my Diocese of Joliet many parish priests still refuse to give Communion on the tongue, despite that being the proper way to receive Communion in the universal Church and despite the fact that the hand has many more germs than the tongue. But what Cardinal Pierre wants would actually make things even worse.
Our parish still had Confession. It may have also had Anointing of the Sick. I don't know because I didn't need it. Father, a different, American, priest, also kept the Church unlocked from 9 to 5 so we could still make visits.
While I don’t let it get to me, as a seminarian it is certainly frustrating when the only time we seem to be mentioned by certain portions of the hierarchy is to stereotype us, “the young priests today dream about wearing the cassock and celebrating Mass in the traditional way.”
Exactly, John.
It’s a sad day when the communications coming from the Vatican and its diplomats have the character of sniping.
I certainly wouldn't trust anything that comes from "American Magazine." As the saying goes, I wouldn't even line my bird cage with thas magazine. It is wonderful that we have The Pillar to give us the true story. I would have to speculate that for the most part Rome doesn't understand Americans nor the Church in America.
Beginning with Spadaro saying Americans are integralists. I had never even heard of integralism when he said that.