The issue seems to be that administering a sacrament requires right intention. And that intention is manifested by the words used to administer the sacrament.
Having said that, it's not clear what the difference is between "I baptize" and "We baptize". It would seem that it is the individual who baptizes, not the whole community.
The issue seems to be that administering a sacrament requires right intention. And that intention is manifested by the words used to administer the sacrament.
Having said that, it's not clear what the difference is between "I baptize" and "We baptize". It would seem that it is the individual who baptizes, not the whole community.
I don't understand who the "we" is in "we baptise." Is it the community? That would be a bad intention, there is no grace to be had from the community. Is it "we" the three persons of the Trinity? Better, but a little presumptive to speak on behalf of all three.
"I" baptise, as well as being ancient, seems to very much have the intention "I [, standing in the person of Christ,] baptise." On baptism the neophyte goes into the tomb with Christ, it is God who acts, not a committee. "We baptise" has bad ju-ju as far as I am concerned.
Right intention is necessary but so are matter and form. While those are traditional theological terms, they're not difficult to understand or explain. The "matter" doesn't just mean physical substance (although that's important too -- you have to baptize with water, you can't use orange juice) it's also the gestures, etc. There are a few things, just a few, that have to be part of each sacrament. So you do them. The "form" refers to the words. You have to say the correct words, you can't make up other ones. Everyone, everywhere, says the same ones. When one language is used for a liturgy, it's easy to see when the priest uses the correct ones. In theory this is the same with the vernacular -- there are approved translations, and you use the words from that translation. What's hard about that? APPARENTLY a lot for some people!!! Seriously. Memorize the words. Read them off a card. Whatever it takes. It's not a five minute speech. In this case, the priest says "I." He's got the water. He's got the person. He (and through him, Christ) is performing the sacrament. There is no "we."
The issue seems to be that administering a sacrament requires right intention. And that intention is manifested by the words used to administer the sacrament.
Having said that, it's not clear what the difference is between "I baptize" and "We baptize". It would seem that it is the individual who baptizes, not the whole community.
Clear explanation would be welcome.
I don't understand who the "we" is in "we baptise." Is it the community? That would be a bad intention, there is no grace to be had from the community. Is it "we" the three persons of the Trinity? Better, but a little presumptive to speak on behalf of all three.
"I" baptise, as well as being ancient, seems to very much have the intention "I [, standing in the person of Christ,] baptise." On baptism the neophyte goes into the tomb with Christ, it is God who acts, not a committee. "We baptise" has bad ju-ju as far as I am concerned.
I believe you've described the issue succinctly and accurately.
I think the intent behind "we" was that it is the Christian community who baptizes.
But I think you identified the problem with that view. It is Christ who baptizes, through the person performing the baptism. Hence, "'I' baptize".
Glad to read that another Tarzan aficionado comments correctly!
Right intention is necessary but so are matter and form. While those are traditional theological terms, they're not difficult to understand or explain. The "matter" doesn't just mean physical substance (although that's important too -- you have to baptize with water, you can't use orange juice) it's also the gestures, etc. There are a few things, just a few, that have to be part of each sacrament. So you do them. The "form" refers to the words. You have to say the correct words, you can't make up other ones. Everyone, everywhere, says the same ones. When one language is used for a liturgy, it's easy to see when the priest uses the correct ones. In theory this is the same with the vernacular -- there are approved translations, and you use the words from that translation. What's hard about that? APPARENTLY a lot for some people!!! Seriously. Memorize the words. Read them off a card. Whatever it takes. It's not a five minute speech. In this case, the priest says "I." He's got the water. He's got the person. He (and through him, Christ) is performing the sacrament. There is no "we."